Make a donation

Author Topic: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?  (Read 1151 times)

Offline Homer

  • Always Involved
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 12
  • -Receive: 4
  • Posts: 393
Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« on: August 24, 2013, 12:11:48 am »
Was having a look at powerful diesel cars online and the ones with decent power seem to need big engines, I.e. 3 litre and above. Was just wondering why this is? Thanks

Offline Scottymon

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 83
  • -Receive: 125
  • Posts: 2139
  • UnNaturally Aspirated
  • My Ride: http://www.voodish.co.uk/misc/6n/6n-alive1.jpg
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 12:46:21 am »
Rev for rev they don't... modern dervs at least...

A 2.0 TDI 170 will make the same if not more power as a 2.0 TFSI at the same revs and more torque... so unless your 4k+ the diesel will keep up.

Had a drag against a mates standard 12 plate 330D in my S2 K03 and it was pretty even from 30 to 130+ I did have the edge on it, although it's just a lot less dramatic in the BM, lol.

Tuned K04 would eat it. Tuned 330d would be interesting against the TK04.

...

Check the standard maps on the TD170 and TFSI197
TDI: http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/vag20tdi170.pdf
TFSI: http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/VAG2.0T197bhp%20Stage2%20WM.pdf

At 3k RPM the diesel is making ~150bhp the petrol ~120bhp
At 4k RPM the diesel is making it's full quota the petrol is just getting started... not to mention the huge balloon of torque.

Once mapped the TFSI really starts making sense though... esp. the K04 which makes around 200bhp at 3k upwards...

Offline Matto

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 24
  • -Receive: 116
  • Posts: 1894
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,37071.0.html
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2013, 12:55:06 am »
Reasonable power can be had from diesels these days. Mine is currently 216bhp/464Nm. The torque is immense and really puts you back in your seat. In my experince a similar bhp petrol will feel very flat in comparison making it seems slower. Although this may not be the case.

I was only talking about this at work earlier. I have been a diesel boy for a good 8 yrs now but have recently been in a couple of highly tuned tfsi motors and was impressed. Although there wasn't that kick up the arse you get with a diesel, they both pulled hard and felt very quick.

Maybe one day I will be back in a petrol.

Offline Andy

  • Admin
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 39
  • -Receive: 443
  • Posts: 10935
    • Email
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2013, 01:14:10 am »
got to remember a petrol engine is bhp where as a diesel is torque.
.

Offline GrayMK5GTI

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 125
  • -Receive: 248
  • Posts: 4165
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 10:06:06 am »
My CR170 TDI has the same amount of torque (on the same dyno) as my stage 1 GTI. On the road I'd say my 170 is pretty much as quick as a stock GTI in real world driving (there really wouldn't be much in it at all).  :surprised:

Revo say a stage 2 CR170 is as quick on the road as a Stage 1 2.0 TSI  :popcornsoda:
NOW: 2015 Golf R DSG 5 Door, Lapiz Blue, 19s, Discover Nav, Reversing Camera
GONE:2007 Black GTI Edition 30 3dr

Offline Tfsi_Mike

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 241
  • -Receive: 309
  • Posts: 10222
  • Go Large or Go Home
    • Tfsi Mikes Money Pit AKS / TTE / RTech St2+ Cupra
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,32721.msg402587.html#msg402587
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 10:22:55 am »
Reasonable power can be had from diesels these days. Mine is currently 216bhp/464Nm. The torque is immense and really puts you back in your seat. In my experince a similar bhp petrol will feel very flat in comparison making it seems slower. Although this may not be the case.

I was only talking about this at work earlier. I have been a diesel boy for a good 8 yrs now but have recently been in a couple of highly tuned tfsi motors and was impressed. Although there wasn't that kick up the arse you get with a diesel, they both pulled hard and felt very quick.

Maybe one day I will be back in a petrol.

You going on the rollers today? Be good to see the curve

Offline Matto

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 24
  • -Receive: 116
  • Posts: 1894
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,37071.0.html
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 10:23:48 am »
Maybe. Not sure yet. Not really got £30 spare.

Offline sub39h

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 189
  • -Receive: 84
  • Posts: 1719
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2013, 10:32:46 am »
i am no automotive engineer, but someone explained it to me in a way that seemed believable. if someone has a better/more correct explanation i genuinely would love to hear it.

bhp is the outcome of the amount of torque an engine produces mutliplied by the number of revs the engine is producing and some mathematical constant. this is why even though petrol cars produce their max torque low down, they tend to produce their peak bhp higher up the rev range. the higher revs mean the bhp is still higher.

diesel is more explosive than petrol, and gram for gram you get more energy from combusting diesel than petrol. this means that the engine components need to be stronger (i.e. heavier) and this means they can't rev as much. this means that despite being able to produce more torque than a like for like petrol, they never rev high enough to be able to match their bhp.

tbh i think nowadays if you're planning on buying a new car you really need to sit down and work out whether diesel is the better way to go. before i returned to uni i was looking at replacing my A3 with an A5 (either the 2.0T quattro or the 3.0TDI quattro) and i worked out that even though they have roughly the same performance, i would have had to drive the derv about 40k miles before the higher initial asking price and the higher price of diesel at the pumps was offset by the better fuel mileage of the diesel car. that combined with the fact that  the 2.0T is lighter (and would hence more likely be more fun to drive) meant that i felt it was the better option. just a shame life got in the way!
2006 Phantom Black A3 2.0T S-Line
DSG | Rear Parking Sensors | MFSW | BOSE | Auto lights/wipers | Half leather
MODS : '09 tail lights | TT vents | Bilstein B14 | RNS-E 2010 | AMI | AKS Tuning custom CAI | Titanium BBS VZs | NQS BBK | WALK | Autotech RARB | Bluemotion aero | Blueflame TBE | Autotech HPFP | MY11 Wing Mirrors | Bluetooth | S3 Intercooler
PLANS: Stage 2+

Offline Frodo-anni

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 14
  • -Receive: 45
  • Posts: 1336
    • Email
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2013, 10:35:54 am »
Think this is one of the main reasons why it took me awhile to settle with the Eddie having come from a mk4 anni pd. I missed this initial torque thump i had with the anni.  Having looked at Revo stage 1 ED30 figures, it appears that is the answer  :signLOL:
mk4 Anniversary pd No0341 - Sold
mk5 GTI Edition 30 DSG No0391

Offline GTI5

  • Always Involved
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 4
  • Posts: 199
Re: Why do diesel cars lack power compared with petrol models?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 12:11:10 pm »
Those Superchips graphs are Torque at the Flywheel not at the wheels.

Torque at the wheels would be more interesting as the power has to pass through a gearbox.

As for Diesels...let's be honest they wouldn't be anywhere near as popular if it wasn't for turbochargers and EU emissions target chasing. But the developments in Diesel tech have been impressive in the last 5 years.

As for Diesel power, Diesels are limited by burn rate when compared with a petrol engine. A long enough stroke so that the air can be compressed until it reaches ignition temperature which will mean a slower engine turn over but higher torque output at the Flywheel.

Someone mentioned about rotational mass, this is also a factor.
MK6 GTI Revo
MK5 GTI DSG - Gone