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Author Topic: ed30 true bhp  (Read 13676 times)

Offline Top Cat

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2009, 02:46:56 pm »
Welcome Rob.  :grin:  :happy2:

Offline DaveyCupra

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2009, 03:13:11 pm »
Hey there rob, welcome along.  Nice to see another yellow cupra on here lol.

Offline edd666999

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2009, 03:28:10 pm »
How many of those were running v-power compared to standard unleaded ?
My wife's CZT was the first to have the consumer release of ecutek software applied. It had been run on V-power from day one.
Car was mapped at the Racing Line in Leeds (Dyno Dynamics rollers) it was producing 156 bhp (up from the 147 quoted) and 180lbs of torque (up from the 150 quoted).

Hello! you over on coltclub too aint you! so what do you drive? no they were not on v power but there were claims it made a difference! your mrs still got the czt?

Offline SO8

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2009, 03:44:46 pm »
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !

Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ?  They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....

My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....

What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ???  Just a thought ?  I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!

Offline edd666999

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2009, 03:50:12 pm »
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !

Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ?  They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....

My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....

What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ???  Just a thought ?  I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!

you car was built on a friday! about 4:30pm :signLOL:

Offline SO8

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2009, 03:54:36 pm »
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !

Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ?  They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....

My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....

What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ???  Just a thought ?  I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!

you car was built on a friday! about 4:30pm :signLOL:
:fighting: :grin:

Offline Hurdy

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2009, 04:32:18 pm »
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !

Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ?  They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....

My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....

What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ???  Just a thought ?  I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!

you car was built on a friday! about 4:30pm :signLOL:

And finished Tuesday after the Bank Holiday weekend when people are still P!ssed up :laugh: :P
Golf R gone.

Offline SO8

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2009, 04:59:33 pm »
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !

Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ?  They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....

My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....

What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ???  Just a thought ?  I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!

you car was built on a friday! about 4:30pm :signLOL:

And finished Tuesday after the Bank Holiday weekend when people are still P!ssed up :laugh: :P
:angry015: :grin:

Still as quick as a VXR8 as I found today when I tested one  :laugh: :laugh:

Offline Keith@APR

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2009, 05:13:26 pm »
Hi Guys , new to the forum ,
Thought this was an intresting thread to post on first  :smiley:.

Been reading with interest , i have a MK2 Leon Cupra , and its running 267 bhp standard according to rolling roads , claimed output is 240 bhp.
On seatcupra.net most Cupras which are rolling roaded do make above stock figures.

With regards to manufactures claims of bhp , i am led to believe they give an average account of the power figure they produce ,very similarly to fuel consumption figures , and btw i can get no where near SEATs claim either , so this shows there are inaccuracies and its not a complete science.

Tolerances on engine components and build standards , materials and process will have a marked influence on what a cars final bhp figures will be , unless we know what tolerances are involved in all the components we can not even begin to understand what figures will actually be able to be achieved.
Concessions on parts happen all the time ,for instance  if a turbo charger vains are cast or machined slightly wrong but give better airflow they may be concessed and be deemed within limits , but inreality might add 1% performance , which might not sound much but how will that 1% affect other components in the engine ? by the time the bhp is measured it could produce 5% more power , this is purely an example.

oh and btw i have been an engineer for 21 years  :smiley: but i certainly dont know everything about everything and i dont watch discovery lol


Here's what I know about it and here's a bit of resume as to where my info originates.

I've toured 3 OEM engine building plants, have friends and associates that work at OEM final assembly and R&D centers, employ several mechanical engineers, most with OEM experience, and watch Discovery to boot!

Mass produced, modularly manufactured engines are assembled with a range of tolerances and the public info is usually given as 1-3% depending on the OEM for variance in power output.

The tolerances that are most important to power delivery are weight of the internals and clearances of the moving and sealing parts.

I'm sure everyone's heard of "Wednesday motors" as being these factory freaks that make 10 to 20% more than advertised.  This is true to an extent but the real maximum difference is more like 5%.  This is gained by comparing an average engine build to a completely balanced and blueprinted engine.  Balanced and blueprinted means every weight is perfectly matched and toleranced and every clearance of moving and sealing assemblies is perfect and is usually accomplished by hand.  Statistically, it is possible for a mass produced engine to be perfectly assembled and it has certainly happened at some point.  So, yes, you could get lucky but not anywhere near as much as people romanticize.

Regarding hand built engines, as long as the guy doing the assembly hits all of his assembly specs each one should be less than 1% every time.  Our raceteam builds quite a few engine and heads by hand and of course is looking for every last ounce of power and full blueprinting and specific balancing is performed with each one and the power numbers on our dyno are amazingly consistent.  I've watched 2 different engines in the same chassis dyno within 2 hp of each other over and over again.

Regarding the differences between OEM power ratings and what we see on the RR:

OEM's collect their dyno numbers at the engine on an engine dyno.  The differences between a chassis dyno and engine dyno alone are enough to make it impossible to determine by a RR if an OEM has over or under rated an engine or not.  

Most do underrate their results however, based on their own RR testing because the Marketing Dept's know that if they don't hit their adverted numbers by independent RR testing, there will be bad press.  Most OEM's also throw a sample of each vehicle or every vehicle depending on model on a RR at the final assembly plant before release to the dealerships as part of their own quality control processes.

Hope this helps.

Offline Top Cat

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2009, 05:24:57 pm »
Very interesting Thanks Keith.   :popcornsoda:

Offline Poverty

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2009, 06:15:45 pm »

Cars dont produce higher then manufactured figures unless modified.



Not always true.

You believe what you want to. Vw cannot sell a car thats not technically it stated output. Going on different rolling road days will make you think that they dont, and the companys rollers will make you think this too, but as a "Production Car" it wont.

Vw ,SEAT who or whatever production car manufacturers dont just give a rough idea, its fact. (give or take 1-2%)

Hand build engines for example, Aston Martin, are hand built and will be different from car to car.

Is this or opinion or have you got some science to back up your claims.

VAG are known to underrate their engines and performance figures. They call it headroom. The same car that is advertised as 240hp in germany, has to make that same 240hp in dubai and iceland. These cars are built to make their claimed hp from the freezing cold, to the superhot.

Also there have been plenty of cases where manufacturers have overtstated the output of a car and understated.

Nissan GTR understated, hyundai coupe overstated etc etc.

But anyway keith has given the best answer, and just for a slight but random fact, porsche engine tolerances are stupidly tight, think they work within 3% whilst most major manufacturers work within 5% iirc. The percentages I have said might be wrong, but what I do remember for certain was that they were a hell of alot less than pretty much anyone else.

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2009, 07:03:04 pm »
Hi Guys , new to the forum ,
Thought this was an intresting thread to post on first  :smiley:.

Been reading with interest , i have a MK2 Leon Cupra , and its running 267 bhp standard according to rolling roads , claimed output is 240 bhp.
On seatcupra.net most Cupras which are rolling roaded do make above stock figures.

With regards to manufactures claims of bhp , i am led to believe they give an average account of the power figure they produce ,very similarly to fuel consumption figures , and btw i can get no where near SEATs claim either , so this shows there are inaccuracies and its not a complete science.

Tolerances on engine components and build standards , materials and process will have a marked influence on what a cars final bhp figures will be , unless we know what tolerances are involved in all the components we can not even begin to understand what figures will actually be able to be achieved.
Concessions on parts happen all the time ,for instance  if a turbo charger vains are cast or machined slightly wrong but give better airflow they may be concessed and be deemed within limits , but inreality might add 1% performance , which might not sound much but how will that 1% affect other components in the engine ? by the time the bhp is measured it could produce 5% more power , this is purely an example.

oh and btw i have been an engineer for 21 years  :smiley: but i certainly dont know everything about everything and i dont watch discovery lol


Here's what I know about it and here's a bit of resume as to where my info originates.

I've toured 3 OEM engine building plants, have friends and associates that work at OEM final assembly and R&D centers, employ several mechanical engineers, most with OEM experience, and watch Discovery to boot!

Mass produced, modularly manufactured engines are assembled with a range of tolerances and the public info is usually given as 1-3% depending on the OEM for variance in power output.

The tolerances that are most important to power delivery are weight of the internals and clearances of the moving and sealing parts.

I'm sure everyone's heard of "Wednesday motors" as being these factory freaks that make 10 to 20% more than advertised.  This is true to an extent but the real maximum difference is more like 5%.  This is gained by comparing an average engine build to a completely balanced and blueprinted engine.  Balanced and blueprinted means every weight is perfectly matched and toleranced and every clearance of moving and sealing assemblies is perfect and is usually accomplished by hand.  Statistically, it is possible for a mass produced engine to be perfectly assembled and it has certainly happened at some point.  So, yes, you could get lucky but not anywhere near as much as people romanticize.

Regarding hand built engines, as long as the guy doing the assembly hits all of his assembly specs each one should be less than 1% every time.  Our raceteam builds quite a few engine and heads by hand and of course is looking for every last ounce of power and full blueprinting and specific balancing is performed with each one and the power numbers on our dyno are amazingly consistent.  I've watched 2 different engines in the same chassis dyno within 2 hp of each other over and over again.

Regarding the differences between OEM power ratings and what we see on the RR:

OEM's collect their dyno numbers at the engine on an engine dyno.  The differences between a chassis dyno and engine dyno alone are enough to make it impossible to determine by a RR if an OEM has over or under rated an engine or not. 

Most do underrate their results however, based on their own RR testing because the Marketing Dept's know that if they don't hit their adverted numbers by independent RR testing, there will be bad press.  Most OEM's also throw a sample of each vehicle or every vehicle depending on model on a RR at the final assembly plant before release to the dealerships as part of their own quality control processes.

Hope this helps.
Cheers for your reply Keith. pretty much somes it in a nutshell.  :happy2:

Offline Shaun

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2009, 08:09:19 pm »
This probably isn't going to add much to this debate (apart from making Phil Mc feel warm and fuzzy!) but when stock I took my Ed30 to the RR day at JKM last year and it produced 232 bhp (i.e 2 more than VW's claimed output). Now as then it is run on an exclusive diet of V-Power.

Pics of the car and map on the day are on the JKM website.
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Offline spliff1star

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2009, 08:25:08 pm »
did you guys say the ed30 engine is identical to the one found in the cupra 240?

Offline SteveP

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Re: ed30 true bhp
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2009, 08:25:39 pm »
^^^ Yep  :happy2: