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Author Topic: GruppeM  (Read 14223 times)

Offline Jules86

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2009, 01:52:23 pm »
Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.

I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.

The heat reflective properties of CF (the most important thing you want from a CAI) are miles ahead of plastic. Other than Gold there isnt much else you could use to reflect heat so well!

Offline RedRobin

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2009, 03:13:56 pm »
^^^^
APR's new intake for the 2.0T FSI is pictured as using CF piping as well as CF front ram filter housing.

A good friend gave me some of that gold tape but I don't think I'm brave enough to wrap my new Forge TWINtake's piping in it when it comes! jonnyc did though, but he's always looking for absolute max performance gains.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 03:15:52 pm by RedRobin »


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Offline tony_danza

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2009, 03:24:40 pm »
Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.

I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.

The heat reflective properties of CF (the most important thing you want from a CAI) are miles ahead of plastic. Other than Gold there isnt much else you could use to reflect heat so well!

In terms of the pipework, I completely agree - but for an airbox, it only matters when stood still and heatsoaking... having air rammed into either a carbon or plastic airbox at xx(x?) MPH and neither are getting anything even close to warm. Thus it doesn't need to be carbon.

Hell, get a plastic one and wrap it in DEI gold tape if you must, it'll still cost hundreds of pounds less and perform exactly the same.
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Offline edd666999

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2009, 03:32:05 pm »

Rolex sell probably a thousand times more of their cheapest range than the top end - why? Because people want the name. Does this reduce the amount of top end ones they sell?? no, because those with money will always want the most expensive/flashiest - the rest will mimic and aspire.



But even the "cheap" rolex's are alot more than a normal watch, so if they released a plastic version it would still have to be 30/40% more than other products in the market for them to hold that exclusivity and people to perceive them as a luxury/best of the best brand. its very difficult to hold both ends of a market i.e expensive and cheap.

just my 2pence  :smiley:   

Offline tony_danza

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2009, 03:45:59 pm »
Oh of course, they'd not want to cheapen the brand name - so it'd have to live up to it's bigger brother's bold claims of being the best in terms of performance.

EVOMS is what £350 for a K04 car?? People would pay £400 if it was proven to be better - no problems.

Funny old world eh!
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Offline animal

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2009, 04:03:52 pm »
Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.

I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.

+2

Only time I'd touch it would be for genuine weight saving purposes e.g. a bonnet (a proper VWRacing one, not a skinned GRP one) and even then I'd paint it!

And I'm with Mike, if you want shield against heat soak stick to Gold.

Carbon fibre is bonded with polymer based resin - Carbon-fibre reinforced plastic. Thermal conductivity of plastic (ABS,PolyProp et al) and CF are pretty close (we're talking 10ths per unit of thermal conductivity). So no real advantage. The carbon fibres are actually pretty good conductors in the own right, which is why graphite fishing rods and over-head power lines aren't a good combination.

In terms of thermal radiation, black is also the worst colour. What colour is CF? A gloss clear-coat might help a tad but you'll never beat a proper shiny metallic finish for decent insulation against radiation.

And isn't the same true of the Carbonio? I've always wondered why they don't offer a plastic version of that. Like T_D says, you have youre every-day high volume product that costs little but sells in high volume, then you have high value low volume flagship. If VW only made the R32 or Ford the RS, they wouldn't be in business very long. Infact, the Mk1 RS was sold at a loss!

Just my 5 penneth worth - I like function over form. As Robin says, each to their own. It's your money. The GruppeM sounds insane on the M3, if you can afford it - why not?

While we're on the subject of aesthetics - why-oh-why is the WALK kit anodised in GOLD?!  :sick: Mine is going to get power-coated in black!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 04:06:07 pm by animal »
Only 250.1bhp - but with that noise, who cares?

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Offline Jules86

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2009, 04:12:39 pm »
All valid points, at the end of the day there are loads of induction kits and they will all give around the same figures. I had a CF ITG on my CTR, i saved about £300 over a Gruppe M and got around 3-4bhp less than other CTR's with the same mods but gruppe m.

Although thats not much if you go after big figures it could be the difference between 295bhp or 300bhp, just depends how much thats worth to you really. I would buy the gruppe m if i had the cash as im a fan of CF (apart from the carbon rash you get when working with it lol) it sounds amazing and looks awesome.

Out of interest doesnt K&N make the filter for them?

Offline RedRobin

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2009, 04:16:31 pm »
^^^^
Yes, the Brand is extremely important and it's continually judged according to the last product it was attached to. Skoda is now so much more highly regarded as a brand but it has had to earn it.

The brand works as a perceived guarantee and reassurance to the consumer that what's on offer is good and reliable etc etc. Brands such as VW, BMW, Audi, Porsche, etc, each give us either trust or mistrust in the product according to our individual experiences and, to some extent, our herd instincts. [You may have noticed that I'm a good example of someone who is particularly low on herd instincts].

Regarding herd instincts, please enjoy this : -



Brands are also subject to fashion and what's currently considered cool.

When I had time to work I used to be very highly paid as a consultant on such matters, but I better stop spouting a thesis.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 05:19:18 pm by RedRobin »


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Offline animal

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2009, 04:22:35 pm »
Brands are also subject to fashion and what's currently considered cool.

Like Carbon Fibre induction kits?
Only 250.1bhp - but with that noise, who cares?

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Offline RedRobin

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2009, 04:31:14 pm »

Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.

I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.


+2

Only time I'd touch it would be for genuine weight saving purposes e.g. a bonnet (a proper VWRacing one, not a skinned GRP one) and even then I'd paint it!


....The VWR one wasn't available when I bought my double-skinned OSIR bonnet - Which I painted (externally) and I would have painted a VWR one too. I still sometimes wonder why I bought it! I don't have any regrets whatsoever but all it's given me is that it's a joy to lift being so light (I'm an OAP) and it saves a relatively tiny amount of overall weight and has an extract vent. Actually the vent is probably its most valuable feature. Oh, the other thing is that I don't have to worry about stone chips creating potential rust spots.

On a road car as opposed to a full-on competition car, CF definitely does major on eye-candy rather than function. But that doesn't bother me as I've spent my whole working life as a professional designer - We are hardwired into eye-candy - Ask VC. It's nice to get a wee bit of functionality though from one's carbonfibre addiction.


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Offline RedRobin

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2009, 04:36:50 pm »

Brands are also subject to fashion and what's currently considered cool.


Like Carbon Fibre induction kits?


....Absolutely!  :happy2: 8) :happy2:

I expect that Forge could easily have produced their straightforward filter enclosure shapes in plastic on their TWINtake but happily for me they used CF. They probably did use CF for having some slight material advantages as well but I'm not party to their design development so I don't actually know.


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Offline RedRobin

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2009, 04:46:37 pm »

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CARBON-COLD-AIR-INDUCTION-KIT-WITH-TURBO-FAN-INTAKE_W0QQitemZ400081958171QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5d26be351b

^^^^ Interesting. Reading it, how many times is the word "carbonfibre" mentioned? They are selling their whole product on it using carbonfibre! No mention of which cars it's suitable for nor the other components. They are trading on the common fashion for CF. It's also an example where I am somewhat put off by the low price - They either have to shift stock because they can't sell them or it's too cheaply manufactured which may be reflected in poor quality.
 
:rolleye: Another reason why I GENERALLY think the eBay brand is sh*te and have no trust in those using it unless I already know them as trustworthy. Oli is now going to remind me that I met him on eBay  :grin:


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Offline animal

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Re: GruppeM
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2009, 04:49:35 pm »

Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.

I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.


+2

Only time I'd touch it would be for genuine weight saving purposes e.g. a bonnet (a proper VWRacing one, not a skinned GRP one) and even then I'd paint it!


....The VWR one wasn't available when I bought my double-skinned OSIR bonnet - Which I painted (externally) and I would have painted a VWR one too. I still sometimes wonder why I bought it! I don't have any regrets whatsoever but all it's given me is that it's a joy to lift being so light (I'm an OAP) and it saves a relatively tiny amount of overall weight and has an extract vent. Actually the vent is probably its most valuable feature. Oh, the other thing is that I don't have to worry about stone chips creating potential rust spots.

On a road car as opposed to a full-on competition car, CF definitely does major on eye-candy rather than function. But that doesn't bother me as I've spent my whole working life as a professional designer - We are hardwired into eye-candy - Ask VC. It's nice to get a wee bit of functionality though from one's carbonfibre addiction.

Sorry Robin, that wasn't intended to be direct dig, I thought you had the VWR bonnet. As an Industrial Designer I sort of straddle the world of aethetics and form following function... A never ending internal battle between Engineer and Designer (My Masters covered both fields). And having worked in both areas (worked in branding and graphic design for a while) I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from Robin!  :drinking:

Jules, that ebay post is fantastic - that description couldn't funnier.

What I also missed in my above post, is that it's not just about weight with CF. A carbon air box won't be substantially lighter than a plastic one anyway, but it terms of strength to weight ratio, it is much better. This is sometimes overlooked when discussing properties of CF. But, why would you need an airbox to be any stronger than a plastic one? You're just paying over the odds for an over engineered product - IMHO.
Only 250.1bhp - but with that noise, who cares?

Mile-muncher ordered: MkVI 1.6 TDi BlueMotion Match DSG with leather, winter pack, luxury pack, fogs, climate control, Dynaudio pack, RCD510 with DAB & MDI, flat tyre indicator

Offline Janner_Sy

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