MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: gobbleplease on December 26, 2009, 08:33:53 pm
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Ive ust bought a set of fronts and rears from ebay , does anyone know where to buy a good set of lighter discs and some decent pads for an R32 Cheers !
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I have been wanting to get some new discs like the drilled ones but i have no idea about brakes. What size do the discs need to be for the .:R32 and where could i find some? Dont mean to hijack your thread Gobbleplease but as its on the same topic thought i might just add to it...thanks :)
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345mmx30mm :happy2:
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read this thread, should answer your questions http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8753.0
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read this thread, should answer your questions http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8753.0
Ta Rob, good help ! but after the last feckin 8 hours of looking does any one in the world know where too buy two piece r32 discs with a link, i looked non stop today with no luck, :jumping:
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read this thread, should answer your questions http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8753.0
Ta Rob, good help ! but after the last feckin 8 hours of looking does any one in the world know where too buy two piece r32 discs with a link, i looked non stop today with no luck, :jumping:
Gobble Please (Gr8 username!)
I think theres little point in trying to save weight on discs with the R32 setup, it is what it is, it has its limitations for track work but will perform well on the road. Trying to put a two piece disc next to an iron caliper/carrier is like getting a train to Euston and getting off at clapham and paying twice the price for your ticket.
Would reccomend a good quality drilled/grooved single piece disc with good quality pads and take what it gives you at minimum cost, you could well pay double for some fancy discs and get an extra 5% performance for the 1% of the miles you drive on the track. The drilling/grooving will give an amount of heat protection for your pads but ultimately they will reach a limit on track.
Hope you dont mind me butting in just my £0.02, and incidentally Im not sure a 2 piece or particularly lightweight solution exists (just to save you some time!)
Cheers
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Cheers mate, when you say "has its limitations for track work" do you mean that it wont benifit over the standard set up ?
i would be interested in your opinion as from other topics you seem to know your stuff about brakes ?
Although from my previous experiance where i up graded my standard m3 set up to the larger caliper carriers and discs of the CSL (extra 20mm ) i also added castrol srf fluid, braided hoses and performance friction carbon metallic pads which drastically reduced fade and improved bite. I was thinking that this set up would work simelar to the m3 set up which i was very happy with.
Although i am worried about the extra weight, TBH i cant see an extra 7KG per side being noticable in the handleing stakes. compared to the extra ability the braking will have
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7kg per wheel in unsprung weight is quite alot is it not :confused:
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+1
In my opinion it may be double price a 2-piece disc,but afterwards you have to change only the rotors when needed.
Especially when you use non-rotor friendly trackday pads,disc ware is bigger.
The question is where can we find 2-piece 345 discs for R32 fronts?
(I will use carbotech X8 pads which I use on my other car with very positive feedback)
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7kg per wheel in unsprung weight is quite alot is it not :confused:
312 kit=13.5KG 345 kit=20.5kg per corner
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ATE do 345mm two peice disks, im pretty sure its in the thread i posted earlier. Carnt remember how you calculate unsprung weight but 28kg works out to be alot.
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It sounds a lot yes but is it enough extra weight to make a differance, i dont think so !. Ill Soon Find out though.
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7kg per wheel in unsprung weight is quite alot is it not :confused:
312 kit=13.5KG 345 kit=20.5kg per corner
And the 350x34mm kit complete with 6 pot front calipers from a GT3 RS Porsche is probably nearer 21kg per corner, you need mass to deal with the heat. Anybody gone tracking with 25mm wide discs knows that.
Obviously if you have £1700-£2000 quid to spend on brakes then we can get lots of boxes ticked but if you are planning on putting £400 into a set of discs and still using iron calipers then its the wrong way to go in my opinion. Better to deploy that money into something liek some Porcshe calipers and having probably 30 different pad compounds to choose from as opposed to the 2 or 3 you can get for a S3/R32 setup.
I'm not having a go at the R32 setup at all, its a great £3-400 upgrade whereby you get £3-400 quids worth of improvement over the stock 312's so by definition good value. As long as you are aware of its limitations, operate within them which means the odd "non hardcore" track day and they'll be great. It may be able to do "Harder" core trackdays with some cooling ducting and some custom made pads
As in most forms of motorsport you can quickly get into the realms of diminishing returns for the more money that you spend, spending greater amounts for smaller improvements. I would suggest that you spend the money wisely and get as much power/stopping for your money as you can.
Edition 30 owners with Pescaras will ultimately need to realise that they are hog-tied by those wheels with very limited room for any upgrades at all. It would either be the B5 RS4 setup (Good pad availability) the Mk5 R32 /S3 setup (Crap pad availability) or the aforementioned custom £2000 setups probably based on a 28mm wide disc as there isn't much room for anything much thicker.
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Fancy 2 piece discs on pig iron single piston calipers is a waste of your time and money. To get any level of performance you're going to have to run a very harsh pad, which you can't buy. Carbotech will do custom if you send them some old backing plates, but it'll cost.
Buying some nice 4/6 pot calipers and running grooved OEM discs and hardcore pads will give far greater rewards. Ducting will assist in heat management and you'll have a half decent solution. Pads are much cheaper on common caliper types like Brembo/AP/Alcon too...
For example I run CL RC6s for hot/dry days and Carbotech XP8s for cold/wet days, both of which were less than £150 a set - find an R32 pad for anywhere near that money that gives the same performance.
Make your consumables as cheap as possible. Sure you might go through a set of OEM discs twice as often as I'll go through mine, but 2 sets of OEM discs are still cheaper than 1 set of my rotors. You can also sell the calipers much easier than a set of 2nd hand 2 piece discs further down the line.
Lastly, you want race car brakes, there's no other way to get them than to fork out the race car money.
Oh, and 7kg of unsprung weight is a lot - that's why Cupras/S3s have alu wishbones to ty and counter the brakes.
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Thanks.Very valuable advices :happy2:
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............................................... Anyone fancy a set of r32 brakes then :sad1:
Bugger ! dont let me buy anything ever again with out prior consultation :grin:
Right TBH if i was going to go for the high end brakes i think i would pay a little exta and go for the alcons. Although i would settle for the APs.
One thing is for sure though i will not be fitting spacers, So i think thats the porsche conversion out, can any one confirm this ?
I seen a a nice set on ebay last night which i nearly bought for £999 although they required 10mm spacers for the monzas !
Whats the sort of best, cheapest (if that makes sense) BBK for the gti. Ive heard about the leon cupra brembos which i can get for about £1200 but im not sure how good they are, anyone know ?
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you just missed out on leon cupra brembo's.
Seat UK was cleaning its shelves, they sold them to dealers at 500 pounds , and on seatcupra.net one dealer sold them away for 650 pounds.
anyhow, it's just the normal GT kit. 320 or 330 discs with 4 piston calipers.
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Djhorace has a set of Leon Brembos for sale.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9764.0
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Gobble, if you're talking about the ECS type Porsche conversion with Cayenne 6 pots, then they're not worth the metal they're made out of for a MKV. They're show pony brakes.
What do you actually want the brakes to do? If you're looking for fast road and 1, maybe 2 trackdays a year, stick with what you have and pad/fluid according to your temps.
More? A few of my track day mates run a solid/4 pot conversion as the next step up, yeah they fade after a while but you just session accordingly - it's hardly ruining their day. A grand and a good cooling solution will see you right.
Lastly Alcons/APs/VWR and other BBKs yeah you're looking at big money, but look at any of the VW Cup race cars and they're all running a set of brakes from these 3 manufacturers (albiet not the 330 AP kit you get for the Golf, the 360/6pot for the 'rocco.). Why? because they do not fail. With these come a fair bit of looking after too, I've rebuilt my discs twice already this year, mainly because I'm anal, they didn't actually need it... but they're not exactly fit and forget. You do however get a good return for them 2nd hand, it just hurts a bit up front!
I might know of some APs for sale at reasonable money, but they're pukka race brakes rather than a road kit, so will need the seals changing every 12 months or so.
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Djhorace has a set of Leon Brembos for sale.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9764.0
thanks !
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Gobble, if you're talking about the ECS type Porsche conversion with Cayenne 6 pots, then they're not worth the metal they're made out of for a MKV. They're show pony brakes.
What do you actually want the brakes to do? If you're looking for fast road and 1, maybe 2 trackdays a year, stick with what you have and pad/fluid according to your temps.
More? A few of my track day mates run a solid/4 pot conversion as the next step up, yeah they fade after a while but you just session accordingly - it's hardly ruining their day. A grand and a good cooling solution will see you right.
Lastly Alcons/APs/VWR and other BBKs yeah you're looking at big money, but look at any of the VW Cup race cars and they're all running a set of brakes from these 3 manufacturers (albiet not the 330 AP kit you get for the Golf, the 360/6pot for the 'rocco.). Why? because they do not fail. With these come a fair bit of looking after too, I've rebuilt my discs twice already this year, mainly because I'm anal, they didn't actually need it... but they're not exactly fit and forget. You do however get a good return for them 2nd hand, it just hurts a bit up front!
I might know of some APs for sale at reasonable money, but they're pukka race brakes rather than a road kit, so will need the seals changing every 12 months or so.
It was the 996 turbo upgrade i was looking at, it came with all new parts and reconditioned calipers.
im looking for something that will see me few some trackdays, TBH i dont drive mental on the road, but get a little competative on the roads. I want a good brake that is not going to fade too bad. I reccon i will probably do 3 trackdays a year including a trip to the ring. I dont really want any issues with yearly seal changes either. Ive heard that those brembos that DJ horrace is selling are pretty good when paired with decent 2 piece disks and a good fluid pads, Could this be the answer ? I believe that no spacers are required too which is what im looking for !
I think this rules the AP 6 pots out too, as spacers are required.
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996 kit isn't a bad option at all.
Buying those Brembos and then 2 piece discs (Badger 5 jobs?) isn't far off 330 AP money, which don't need spacers. You just need to buy from the right place, they can be had for around £1500-1600.
They'll do everything you need based on what you've said, have much better discs, better/cheaper pad options and be worth more come sale time.
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the guy who mapped my car had the 996 calipers with merc 350mm solid discs, theyw ere bloody strong, he has also used the on track days and believes reckkons they were fade free, and ive seen how he drives, hes pretty aggressive behind the wheel, so id guess they were getting some abuse there.
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i think 10mm spacers are required for monzas and 12mm for pescaras with the 996 tbo brakes. I didnt really want spacers so that has sort of rulled these out, Although for £999 for basically a brand new kit i would of snapped them up.
yea ive sourced an ap kit for £1550 inc vat from - demon tweaks, But ive been speaking to dave and it looks like i can have a simelar kit for a lot less so here is hoping !
does anyone want to buy a lung,.............................................................. its ok i have two... :laugh:,
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the guy who mapped my car had the 996 calipers with merc 350mm solid discs, theyw ere bloody strong,
Thanks mate :happy2:
does anyone want to buy a lung,.............................................................. its ok i have two... :laugh:,
Just FYI Im no longer taking body parts in p/x for BBK's, the jars in a row full of kidneys were a good talking point at dinner parties for a while....... now I just look wierd........now if anybody has a spare liver in swap for some Porsche Pagid RS29 Yellows I'd be interested.....too much Christmas spirits... :laugh:
The 996 Turbo stuff on ebay was mine, its a great kit that fits straight onto an 8J TTS rim, a good strong kit with discs available from 80 quid, its also very easy to get daft pads for, Ive got Performance Friction 97's and 01's for that caliper as well as RS4-2 under my stairs. That kit went to Greece.....I was thinking about having a Reliant Robin Van signwritten up with Preston - Warrington - Athens on the side !!!!
Bryan you have PM (in 2 mins)
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I think this rules the AP 6 pots out too, as spacers are required.
....I'm fairly confident that AP Racing 6-pots do not require spacers for the Mk5 GTI Monza's.
Otherwise it's exactly as others are posting: Horses for Courses.
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I think this rules the AP 6 pots out too, as spacers are required.
....I'm fairly confident that AP Racing 6-pots do not require spacers for the Mk5 GTI Monza's.
Otherwise it's exactly as others are posting: Horses for Courses.
I think he's talking about the 360mm 6pots the 'rocco race car runs - as I'd mentioned them earlier in the thread. I'd be surprised if these would go under a Monza II.
Although your 330mms come in 6-pots too, don't they Robin?
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Yes, my AP 330's do come in 6-pots and they fit both Monza 17's and 18's. I had the option of the 6-pots but am very happy with my 4-pots so far and am on my second set.
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In addition the 360's weigh 9.5KG and are floating (not great for road cars) as opposed the bolted 330's which weigh 4.9kg ....... they weigh twice as much are they twice as good.......?
9.5KG + Bell = OEM R32 disc territory
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@ Dave The Brake Guru:
IIRC the R32 and S3 brakes are the same? By fitting the S3 rears am I negating my lightweight OZ unsprung weight advantages? [I haven't fitted them yet].
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Hi Robin.
As ever its all about balance, recently had a go in an S3 that had R8 rear brakes on the front and S3 rears on the back, the reason for the comparison is that the R8 brakes have the same 4.95 cm/sqd piston area as your AP's and to be honest it just felt great
We've all danced this waltz before about whether or not its a worthwhile upgrade and I would say yes it is, when fitted the car definetely feels more stable and therefore inspiring more confidence. The Danza's of this world need the weight transfer to the front as it improves traction especially when considering that ultimately when passing or racing you will probably end up braking and cornering at some point which is something your average clubman track day slagger is told to avoid.
My point is the tyre contact patch is actually wider left to right than it is front to back so if you're really going for it you need the weight transfer that small rear brakes give you, invariably we want to go fast but not grow grey hairs at the same time due worry about stuffing it.....
I would say chuck em on and see, its an experiment, if it doesnt work out you've spent two hours of labour in getting them on.
If you were planning on taking advantage of the reduced stability of the smaller rears then Im guessing that you would need to change ARBs and tyre pressures etc to get that "loose" feeling.
Its all about driving style - If you try them on and dont like it I'll have em back!!
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If you brake in a straight line and then turn, buy bigger rears - if you trail brake and use oversteer, don't.
Simples.
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Nicely summarised......i do go on a bit dont I........... :sad1: :ashamed:
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^^^^
:drinking: Cheers, guys :happy2:
@ DaveB: They should be going on later in January. From what you've told me I'm looking forward to it.
Nicely summarised......i do go on a bit dont I........... :sad1: :ashamed:
....I'm glad you do! I learnt something from your post :happy2:
@ TonyD: My well established driving habit is to always do as much braking as I can while the car is still straight - I'm a slow in and fast out kinda guy.
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There you go then Robin, get 'em on.
My style and car set up will be 100% different to yours - so using my car as a guide or comparison is useless to you.
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Cheers for the advice ! really helpfull :congrats:
Anyways ive ditched the r32 brakes which will be for sale as soon as i recieve them and have decided to go for a more suitable brake which i wont have to upgrage in the future. Ive just purchased a set of AP 4 pots, 2 set of pads with floating discs.
This will hopefully be all the brakes i ever need for the road and track
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Can someone please tell me what brake kit TC has now??? Audi Disc's I think...... about 18"??? All I know is, at Halifax they looked HUGE :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
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@ Gobbler: AP Racing brake kits have a very well established great reputation - I'm not going to sit here and claim they are the best money can buy, but for fast road use and occasional track use they won't let you down. The nice thing about them is that they have excellent pedal feel and don't snatch but do progressively stop you!
I think you'll be very pleased. Enjoy! :happy2:
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yea i looked in too them for my m3 and they looked like the caliper of choice ! although ive noticed that a few companys were ditching them in the CSL race series for the Alcons.
These are are still probably one of the best brake kits available, so i reccon ill be more than happy.
Red - i noticed that you said you were on your second set. What happend to the first ?
The thing about modding with top end parts is that once you sell the car and rip off all the parts you still seem to get top dollar from them so its an investment really :xmassmiley:
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Red - i noticed that you said you were on your second set. What happend to the first ?
....Discs wore out after about 50k miles (all road use) - Quite good imo and not unexpected. The pads lasted a similar time - I'm not heavy on brakes but always glad to be able to rely on them.
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People who man-brake choose Alcons. :happy2:
Ha ha, only kidding. It really wasn't worth the extra £400 in your case. What pads are DT supplying, DS2500s?? You might want to look into some track pads, depending on how hard you intend to use them.
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that seems like they have pretty good life in them robin, when you said "second set" i thought you meant calipers :surprised:
yea im getting 2 sets of pads DS 2500 for road and pagids for race
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Perfect... so long as you know you can't cross carbon ceramic pads and normal on the same discs. Some RBF600 and you'll be good to go :happy2:
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Can someone please tell me what brake kit TC has now??? Audi Disc's I think...... about 18"??? All I know is, at Halifax they looked HUGE :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
TC is running Audi B5 RS4 360x32 Twin pot calipers, dont think he's put too many miles on them but we're cautiously optimistic they are going to be a good setup and a good option for those with limiting rimmage
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twin pot...im guessing that is one piston ither side of the disc or is it just two pistons on the wheel side of the disc, or am i way off the mark?
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Both pots on the same side, think an R32 setup but with two smaller pistons....
Good pic is this one, its a 1/2 way house between 4 pots and Cast Iron calipers, the discs are actually very lightweight for what they are, they have an alloy centre bell.
Heavy setup though and good for a 2.7 Biturbo RS4 whichwas 370BHP as standard for those who tuned their cars (500BHP) you could buy the motorsport pack which was these drilled discs and audi competition pads which were very poorly disguised Pagid RS19 Yellows.
Without soundling like Clarkson..........some say ...you could stop out all day on these babies until you ran out of petrol
They'd be good for ED30 owners looking for something that fits between the R32 setup and the £1500 kits
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fae279%2FDelta-Performance%2F657RS4_sport_brakes.jpg&hash=265f67bff4f2189815dc8cc9d29a21efc612f1df)
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are they solid discs then, and are they cheap to replace. seems like a very good option. whats the going rate for a set of these new, cos if you could get reconditioned or even new 4 pots on a smaller disc for lss i'd proably stump out for ther 4 pots i think
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I havn't covered too miles with my set up, but i can safely say the are really good and very sharp at low speeds. :rolleye:
A couple of people have driven my car with them on and have brought the car to a instant stop not meaning to, whilst leaving car parks. :grin:
And the rolling road op at the last meet commented how good they were. I think with some track pads in they should be amazing. :jumping:
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whats the going rate for these then. excluding the discs they almost look oem.
Did you need spacers, and are track pads readily available for them.
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The rotors are about £390 with VAT for the pair, which sounds quite expensive but considering they are two piece and 360x32 makes them reasonable value if you are commiting to a setup of this ilk.
Totally fahooked calipers in desperate need of a refurb pop up on ebay for about £150 every now and again, repaiur kits for them are readily available as the caliper is the same on as the Mk4 R32 and the BMW E38 750i. I'd be budgeting for £300 for a fully refurbed set powder coated and resealed, you've got the choice of pads from OEM sources. BMW use Textar for their pads, VW/Audi use Pagid both readily available for about £55.
Regarding track pads you've got Ds2500/DS3000/M1144/M1155 all at around £120 for the ferodo and about £90 for the mintex's. Pagid do this pad in RS29 which only a few years ago was a compound that was winning Le Man pre-carbon...they're about £220 but can be had for as little as £180, they are the endurance version of the RS19 which is commonly known as the pagid yellow. I spoke to Tom about these despite being a little hard they would defo last a good number of track day/ring trips and would therefore spread their cost over two years or so. As mentioned earlier Audi do their competition pad for these calipers but its their P90 compound which is basically RS29 with a little less squeak in the mix. P90 is also used on the Porsche PCCB pads
The problem with them is that you would need to change them at the track.....yellows and roads = epic fail/brown trousers