Post by: AJP on October 24, 2016, 02:29:34 pm
It got me thinking about a different means of cooling. I've read about water meth a few times on here, usually as part of quite a hefty power-focussed build - k04 or bigger, all the bolt-ons including a bigger intercooler - and it obviously plays a part in hitting big figures. From what I gather installing a kit and maintaining its reliability could be more straightforward, but I expect as time goes on designs will improve and things will get easier for the user. The fact that (I think) BMW are starting to utilise water meth also points to the technology becoming more mainstream.
Considering the pros and cons of a large intercooler (possible lag, boost drop) how effective would a water meth install alongside a standard GTI/Ed30 cooler be? Not necessarily in a situation where you were chasing numbers, but trying to achieve equal or improved cooling compared to the same car fitted with a big intercooler and no water meth. Theoretically if equivalent cooling function is achieved the big advantage would be a better response and spool; charge air wouldn't have to fill the volume of a big intercooler, and this might open some new doors when it comes to mapping.
So, are we there yet? Is water meth a viable alternative to the traditional big intercooler rather than a niche add-on reserved for squeezing out an extra few horses on big power cars?
Post by: pudding on October 24, 2016, 02:42:51 pm
I'd love to see how an OEM implements water injection and what bits they use to keep it neat and reliable.
I reckon it would be a good partner with a standard intercooler.
I had a crazy idea in my head about injecting brake cleaner into the turbo discharge pipe. If you get that stuff on your hands it's pretty cold, and it would deep clean the intercooler and pipework, and the valves (over time) too!
Post by: Shoduchi on October 24, 2016, 02:51:04 pm
Post by: AJP on October 24, 2016, 02:52:26 pm
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/bmw-m4-gtss-water-injection-system-feature-other-cars-2019
Developed by Bosch.
Post by: AJP on October 24, 2016, 02:58:13 pm
I think you can also try that option. It will decrease the IAT and with methanol it will increase the fuel octanes. I think it's not used as 1st mod for cooling IAT because it's more expensive and requires refilling the WM tank. If you fit a S3 IC you'll get good gains without compromising the K03 lag.Yes I assumed it was more expensive than the usual 'fit a bigger intercooler' route. However there might just come a point when it becomes a real option. It's encouraging that it's being used by car manufacturers. The more it's used, the more it develops, and the more chance of it being a much more common mod one day.
S3 intercooler AND WMI.... now that would be good. But kind of defeats the purpose of my question
Post by: Shoduchi on October 24, 2016, 03:06:41 pm
Post by: pudding on October 24, 2016, 04:15:54 pm
Yeah, the M4 GTS has water injection to enable an higher boost pressure. I have a friend with WMI in his GTI that only uses distilled water stored in the wipers water tank. I might do the same one day too. :smiley:
I used Decasol screen wash which had methanol in it to stop it freezing over winter. Saves having 2 tanks!
Post by: Shoduchi on October 24, 2016, 06:47:35 pm
Not sure if that liquid is good for the combustion but shouldn't be bad since you used it. I've seen online that the Excel screenwash has 1-5% methanol, 30-60% of ethanol and 1-5% of Propanol.Yeah, the M4 GTS has water injection to enable an higher boost pressure. I have a friend with WMI in his GTI that only uses distilled water stored in the wipers water tank. I might do the same one day too. :smiley:
I used Decasol screen wash which had methanol in it to stop it freezing over winter. Saves having 2 tanks!
http://www.cdgltd.co.uk/files/ww/Decosol%20Excel%20Screenwash%201Lt.pdf (http://www.cdgltd.co.uk/files/ww/Decosol%20Excel%20Screenwash%201Lt.pdf)
Post by: th3_f15t on October 26, 2016, 01:32:27 pm
I'll be keeping tabs on this discussion as it's quite relevant to me... :drinking:
Post by: pudding on October 26, 2016, 02:14:13 pm
Not cheap though, but it would be more effective than spraying a single mist into the throttle body!
With a decent system that has fluid level detection, you could probably use that sensor to switch to a 'safe' map if the meth runs out.
Post by: Paradox1 on October 27, 2016, 09:59:38 am
Im just waiting to replace my meth hose then can put it to the test. As I posted in another thread, the intercooler alone makes a huge difference. Im guessing its down to the size of mine(go big or go home) I will report back once i have the meth up and running.
Post by: Shoduchi on October 27, 2016, 10:26:15 am
This intake manifold has 4 ports for WMI - http://www.performancebyie.com/ie-2-0t-fsi-tsi-tfsi-intake-manifold-ea113-ea888-gen1-gen2From what I've read on Facebook that manifold only works well with IE software. APR software doesn't do well and @vRSAlex (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1981) advised against. They also suffer from heat soak so they definitely need WMI to work well. :smiley:
Not cheap though, but it would be more effective than spraying a single mist into the throttle body!
With a decent system that has fluid level detection, you could probably use that sensor to switch to a 'safe' map if the meth runs out.
Post by: Paradox1 on October 27, 2016, 10:57:59 am
This intake manifold has 4 ports for WMI - http://www.performancebyie.com/ie-2-0t-fsi-tsi-tfsi-intake-manifold-ea113-ea888-gen1-gen2From what I've read on Facebook that manifold only works well with IE software. APR software doesn't do well and @vRSAlex (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1981) advised against. They also suffer from heat soak so they definitely need WMI to work well. :smiley:
Not cheap though, but it would be more effective than spraying a single mist into the throttle body!
With a decent system that has fluid level detection, you could probably use that sensor to switch to a 'safe' map if the meth runs out.
What does thre IE software do exactly?
I would have thought any custom mapping that could include the RFD would be sufficient??
Post by: Shoduchi on October 27, 2016, 12:00:54 pm
I don't know exactly what the IE tune has that other tunes don't. It seems that without the correct tune the manifold flows less than stock. :thinking:This intake manifold has 4 ports for WMI - http://www.performancebyie.com/ie-2-0t-fsi-tsi-tfsi-intake-manifold-ea113-ea888-gen1-gen2From what I've read on Facebook that manifold only works well with IE software. APR software doesn't do well and @vRSAlex (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1981) advised against. They also suffer from heat soak so they definitely need WMI to work well. :smiley:
Not cheap though, but it would be more effective than spraying a single mist into the throttle body!
With a decent system that has fluid level detection, you could probably use that sensor to switch to a 'safe' map if the meth runs out.
What does thre IE software do exactly?
I would have thought any custom mapping that could include the RFD would be sufficient??
Post by: Paradox1 on October 27, 2016, 12:09:17 pm
So if there is a seperate software just for the manifold to work then how would you go about a custom tune as I doubt IE would cater for all turbo build setups.
may be worth buying and letting somewhere like Rtech map this.
Unless youd have to go standalone ECU to map it?
Post by: Shoduchi on October 27, 2016, 12:43:52 pm
Thats rubbish lolMaybe @rtechniki (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1870) can answer if he can make this manifold work like the IE tune can. For what I've read seems like Unitronic, APR and Revo don't really work well with it. :confused:
So if there is a seperate software just for the manifold to work then how would you go about a custom tune as I doubt IE would cater for all turbo build setups.
may be worth buying and letting somewhere like Rtech map this.
Unless youd have to go standalone ECU to map it?
Post by: pudding on October 28, 2016, 03:38:11 pm
It reminds me of HPA's intake for the R32. Someone fitted one and it lost 50lbft over the standard intake immediately :grin: Lots of forum debate about it. HPA got involved and said (surprise surprise) "you need our special cams and tune to get the torque back". But it never did get back to standard levels of torque with those extras! It was primarily designed for forced induction, but losing that much torque didn't win them many customers iirc.
I think the same is true of HPA's own TFSI intake. "Yeah, you need our tune otherwise it won't run properly".
Seems to be a bit of a theme with the Americans. They go bigger and better on the flow but it royally messes with the engine dynamics, so they have to then mess around with the ECU to try and get you back to where you started with the standard manifold :grin:
So erm, yeah, squirt the meth into the standard intake!
Post by: AJP on October 28, 2016, 04:24:16 pm
Post by: grey golfster on October 28, 2016, 07:11:13 pm
One thing I'm not understanding here...
We are/would generally run water-meth?
The BMW story linked here, and elsewhere, seems to be plain water.
And then there is the ethanol/methanol/propanol "blend" talked about above also.
Can someone enlighten me please?
Post by: AJP on October 28, 2016, 07:37:08 pm
I'm really interested in the possibilities of a wm kit...intake charge temperature reduction and valve cleaning are attractive.As far as I understand it (and someone more knowledgeable should chip in) water alone simply cools the charge and slows combustion, whereas methanol actively increases the octane level too. That's a very basic explanation!
One thing I'm not understanding here...
We are/would generally run water-meth?
The BMW story linked here, and elsewhere, seems to be plain water.
And then there is the ethanol/methanol/propanol "blend" talked about above also.
Can someone enlighten me please?
I think in the case of a production car it's far easier to use water alone. Although time will tell how that develops.
Post by: grey golfster on October 29, 2016, 12:01:31 pm
Post by: AJP on October 29, 2016, 12:17:10 pm
Yes, understood, and agreed I think....but if so, you think the ultimate M car would do likewise in their quest for power/performance?Well the power increase over the normal M4 is about 70bhp, so that was probably deemed sufficient. Yeah they could arguably have used meth but at the expense of having to develop a foolproof water-meth system on a production car that anyone could buy and drive. I'm sure not all M4 owners are true enthusiasts who'd have the means and ability to run a car with methanol in a tank like some modders are prepared to.
70bhp just with water is significant though.
Post by: colesey on November 03, 2016, 06:13:03 am
Post by: DANBOY66 on November 03, 2016, 07:03:08 am
it flows worse than stock and i am sure it was proven by niki when he swapped it for a stock one on the dyno
and on a bench flow by another forum member a stiock one flowed better
then with the internal trumpets removed it flowed better than stock but its about 40 hours labour to remove them a friend bench flowed it before and after the trumpets removed and it did get better
total waste of money the stock manifold flows well
meth with no intercooler works well but then your car is meth reliant and that is not ideal in the real world its easier just to fit a descent intercooler and forget about it unless your going for maximum power then fit a cooler and meth
i have done both meth and cooler and now just cooler and tbh adding meth to a car is just more hassle and expense for very little gain
Dan..
Post by: colesey on November 03, 2016, 05:12:40 pm
Post by: pudding on November 04, 2016, 09:52:48 am
Post by: Paradox1 on November 04, 2016, 11:25:45 am
Mine's being feel slower the colder it gets! I guess that's what happens when you throw on a 3" downpipe and bigger intercooler without adjusting the map to suit :grin:
What cooler you got?
I got a 3 inch DP and a wellycooler on min unmapped. it does feel a bit laggy but it does go once thew cooler gets air in it.
In the weather I guess I dont really need meth but im extra lol
Post by: pudding on November 04, 2016, 02:38:21 pm
Mine's being feel slower the colder it gets! I guess that's what happens when you throw on a 3" downpipe and bigger intercooler without adjusting the map to suit :grin:
What cooler you got?
I got a 3 inch DP and a wellycooler on min unmapped. it does feel a bit laggy but it does go once thew cooler gets air in it.
In the weather I guess I dont really need meth but im extra lol
Just one of the newer plastic ended S3 jobs mate. I'm not going stage 2+, so that's all I need really. Yeah that's how mine feels, laggy...... and slower than usual! It's intermittent as well, which is annoying. Pulls well everywhere one week, than shat the next! I hate how inconsistent turbo engines can be sometimes!
I think I'm getting boredom pangs again...... the engine feels slow and coarse, the suspension feels awful, the plastics inside are all brittle and creaky......it just feels old!!
I think the car just wants to hibernate over the winter like me :grin:
Post by: r5gtt on November 04, 2016, 03:29:52 pm
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on November 04, 2016, 06:47:02 pm