MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: vRS Carl on February 14, 2010, 10:34:56 am
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Ok with the risk of being hit by the massive REVO fanboy stick :signLOL:
Does anyone have any experience of APR maps particularly the Stage 2+ software for K03 Cars
I am currently REVO stage 2+ and without wanting to start slanging matches etc (if you are that interested PM me and i will explain) i am not happy with the REVO K03 Stage 2+ software and i've gone as far as i can with them now. They basically are point blank denying the problem is software based.
So does anyone have experience of the Equivalent APR product?
The only other option i am considering is Shark Performance Stage 3 but will wait until i have seen a RR Graph and been in a Stage 3 Car.
I will say though that the Stage 2 Shark Code produced a very good RR Graph on a DD RR.
Cheers
Carl :happy2:
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think msportman had apr on is car..I am not a fan of revo..its each to thier own personnal taste thats what makes us all individuals :happy2:
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ben might have the HPFP fitted by the time he gets to JKM on the 20th. depends if they arrive from USA in time.
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I've run APR on all my VAG cars 1.8T's (Stg1 thru Stg3+), R32's & S3's, and have always been impressed by the OE feel of the delivery and way the extra power is delivered. I know others have had issues with APR but personally I've never had a problem with their software. I have driven plenty of 2.0T FSI cars with their software, and when driving them on the road was that it felt like it improved the K03's more than the K04s. This is a subjective opinion of how the cars felt behind the wheel, not necessarily how they performed on the dyno.
My colours aren't nailed to any particular mast anymore so I'm biding my time before getting the ECU upgrade, but I still have a preference for APR knowing the R&D facility and the quality of the engineers that produce the code. I haven't owned a VW or Audi that ran any other type of software so not able to comment on their day to day driveability. Hope this helps.
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I think they write good code, I can't see how anyone could argue with that - certainly in terms of K03 & K04 cars, everyone seems to get what it says on the tin.
A forum member insisted code was a problem not that long ago on here, it was then found that the car had been fitted with an incorrect fuel pressure sensor from the factory. There was absolutely no way the tuner could tell from the diags that it had the wrong sensor, so their code itself was 100%... it was just the problem only manefested itself when the code was switched on and this clouded the real cause.
I'm not saying don't jump, but be sure you're not going to spend £500 to transfer the problem with it.
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^^^^ +1 :happy2:
The cars are so complex now that it can be any number of components that causes an issue, especially if that software is running perfectly on other cars. Over the years I've had boost leaks, MAF issues, coilpacks and even a split intercooler that have caused problems, but initially everyone looks to the software. It's only when you can do thorough diagnostics that you can see (hopefully!!) where issue is. A session on a dyno with a good technician may save you lashing out 500 notes on a different remap only to have the same issue just wearing a different badge.
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Just as a bit of background I have replaced the following
MAF sensor
MAP sensor
Turbo outlet pipe
Turbo intercooler pipe
BSH Catch Can
Relocated DV and replaced DV
Lamda sensors checked all fine
Throttle body intake pipe replaced
All coil packs replaced
Cylinder Head Cover and Gasket replaced
All other hoses eyc in the engine have been replaced with new oem ones
I have spent near £900 so far trying to locate this hardware problem.
Everything on the car is 100% working as should. Keith at JKM has spent hours looking into this problem and can't find a hardware related problem. I have personally stripped down checked, cleaned, Re-Checked and finally checked again before replacing everything on the pressure side of the system.
The logs for the for the car on the road were completely different to on the RR. It's just now the Logs on the road are manifesting the same as on the RR. The car is going back on JKM's rollers next week and if I still have a loss in power then there is only the software that is left.
Unless anyone can think of anything left for me to check.
I'm not slagging REVO off and everything was fine and perfect on the car at Stage 2. It was when I went stage 2+ that the problems started. I have as already said tried tested and in some places replaced everything that could be a problem.
To be fair Kev Hall was quite helpful with the emails and logs I sent him.
This is just my personal opinion but if I were in charge of REVO I would go out of my way to prove to a customer that the problem was not software related. Not , depending on who you speak to, instantly blame the car/hardware.
REVO is very very good. But they are not flawless as they think. No software ever is.
Just to also give some perspective as to why I'm 99.9999% certain it's the software. I know of another Octavia vRS (who has since gone K04) that had the same Stage 2+ file. His car went on JKMs RR and his dyno graph was IDENTICAL to mine. It had the same problem in the same area. The power and torque where also IDENTICAL. The only different hardware on his car to mine was he had a 3" turbo downpipe whereas I have a 2.75" Miltek Turbo downpipe. He has a Forge Twintercooler I have an S3 intercooler otherwise everything else is the same
Now you could put that down to a freak co-incidence. However when a mate who has a K03 Leon FR and he got the exact same as me and the other octavia. Identical dyno graphs identical area for the problem
That to me suggests software. What are the chances of 3 cars all at the same state of tune ( different mods in terms if makers bit still all the same )
I also know that the REVO K03 stage 2+ file is different to when it was first released. I'm talking the official release aswell not a BETA code.
Anyway thanks for all the input guys. Keep it coming. I'm always willing to listen to advice and others opinions.
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Reuben at Tuningwerkes in Croydon has been running the APR Stage 2 + equivalent for a while now on his KO3 GTI. May be worth phoning him and asking a few questions? If you're local I'm sure he'll take you out in it too!
http://www.tuningwerkes.com/
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ukdub on here is also running stage 2+ on his k03 car...
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i looked into APR a bit before changing from bluefin. but i could not find any dyno proof of APR at stage 2 or 2+ apart frpm on america where they all manage at least 500 wheel horsepower at stage 1. i did like the idea of switching between maps on the cruise control stick though.
i was so certain of going revo, but carls stage 2+ issues were a bit of a put off and the fact harrys car did the same as well made melook into others. then i saw how well bens car performed at stage 2 in comparison and how much cheaper it was so i thought id guinea pig my self for that one. there are alot of guys on briskoda now with his software singing its praises. he must be one of the predominent tuners on there now.
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I ran apr stage 2 on my old 1.8t cupra r 225 and it was awesome and never had any probs with it all :smiley:
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out of interest, what HPFP are you using?
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Autotech one of the very first to the UK.
Had it for 40k+ miles
No issues at all
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doubt its the pump. jkm would have logged all the specified and actual fuel pressure as soon as there were issues. have you got your cable back from ross tech yet carl??
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I ran APR software on my last 3 cars 8L S3, mk5 GTI and ED30 and have nothing but praise for it, made good smooth gains everywhere and never gave any issues at all and I wouldn't hesitate in using it again. I just fancied a change with the 8P S3 so went Revo :happy2:
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doubt its the pump. jkm would have logged all the specified and actual fuel pressure as soon as there were issues. have you got your cable back from ross tech yet carl??
Yes came last week but i am away till this Friday
Carl :happy2:
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Bacillus is right, I am running APR stage 2+ software with APR hardware as well. Had APR stage one since 18K, stage 2 since 39K and stage 2+ since about 60k. Presently on 89k. The only issues I had was on their stage 2 software in the early days (2007) when people were getting fuel cuts due to the standard HPFP. This was solved very quickly by APR writing an update for the stage 2 map. Since getting stage 2+, I can say that I have not had any issues at all, not even the Flat spot at 5200rpm on 2.0T cars that people talk about. Not had it on the RR since stage 2+ but at stage 2 (on Awesome's RR) it made 260bhp (242whp) and 296ft-lbs of torque. :happy2:
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my product review of APR Stg1 is on here and fits exactly what I was after, as Gaz says clean strong power. (K04 for me)
In fact the new update v2.2 is even better :happy2:
20k miles on stg1 so far and loving it. Any issues have been dealt with open and honestly by Awesome and APR :happy2:
Also depends a lot on who your UK dealer will be ?
bacillus arent you running REVO ? and youre the highest K03 I know :evilgrin:
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I dont mind travelling to get it done properly.
Awesome is only 25 mins from my folks.
I generally use JKM but can always go to Awesome one weekend when at the folks
Carl
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bacillus arent you running REVO ?
Correct... :smiley:
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My stage 2 REVO made 270BHP and 330fl-lbs on Awesome's rollers.
I can't comment on REVO's stage 2+ performance, I don't have it. However, Bacillus' S2+ car well out performed mine on the same day. It was also highly praised by Jim.
I will have it in a few weeks when the HPFP arrives, so may well revisit this with my views. I'll be watching this to see yours if you change too. I'm not so blind as to not take notice, although I do seem to remember JKM were involved in the case of blaming REVO in the example I gave above that turned out to be hardware.
My K03 car had a recall on the low pressure fuel sensor too, seems a common VW f*** up - worth a look?
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Well the car is back on the RR at JKM on saturday so will see if there are any changes as i have replaced the MAF & MAP sensors since last time.
Low pressure fuel sensor will be the last thing i check before jumping ship as if i replace that i will be around the £1k chasing a phantom error.
Carl :happy2:
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Cool - keep us updated then.
I hate to see someone having to throw money at a car chasing a fault, I just hope it isn't something stupid like a fuel sensor after all that.
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To be honest i don't care anymore i just want it sorted.
I will also publicly apologise to REVO if it turns out to be something other than the Software. I am just finding it hard to see 3 different cars have the exact same problem at the exact same point.
I've still yet to decide wether it will be the APR or Shark performance ship i go to
Carl :happy2:
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have i read one of your previous posts correct carl. i remember before your car wasnt perfoming on the RR but was on the road. is it now not performing on either??
if you are going to the shark perfomance open day ben should 100% have the stage 3 installed then. read a reply to someones post on brisky earlier where a guy on there "sherlock vRS".
He is an official REVO dealer and has had REVO custom stage 2 map on his car(as a demonstrater), and really rates the shark perfomance stage 2 after driving bens. basically he said it didnt have the aggressive surge of torque but instead the power delivery was very very good as was the torque.
so based on that i wouldnt expect it to beat REVO performance wiae, but match it with a different delivery whyou are afterich might be what
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The car is basically hit and miss.
One minute it's like an Exocet missile then the next it isn't.
This is what is happening with my car
Me - Mash the Pedal to the Floor
Car - Happy fooking days sunshine lets go you want power then i give you POWWWWWERRRRRRRRR
Me - Face like :laugh: :party: :laugh:
Next time
Me - Mash the pedal to the Floor
Car - hang on a minute will you let me catch my breath. Okay here we go awww sh!t run out of Revs, sorry big fella maybe next time
Me - Face like :confused: :confused: :confused:
Next time
Me - Feed power in
Car - Quick lads get some more coal on that fire he's gonna ask for more power in a minute, In fact fu*k it give him it all now
Me - Face like :laugh: :party: :laugh: but :confused:
Thats what it is like living with the Blue Bullet at the moment and has been for a while.
All the logs now basically resemble the RR logs. I can set the car on Boost 9 Timing 9 Fuel 9 and get no problems at all log wise
But i must remember (all together now) There is no problem with REVO software, There is no roblem with REVO software. Woooosahhhhh :evilgrin:
Carl :happy2:
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thing is its not as if you ghavent replaced everything. My only thought there is if it was the map would it not be a consistent thing??
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have you thought about a jabbasport custom map. i have heard nothin but excellent things about them.
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Jabba do have good ratings but i want to see decent dyno plots
Not interested in numbers just more the delivery and how well it holds the power etc.
Carl :happy2:
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Completely ignoring whos code this is, lets look at it as a process of elimination.
It is intermittant and the car as you say, is capable of producing what it should when it gets it right. Yes?
The code is a fixed set of values that doesn't change (until you do it with the SPS). The ECU is what manages those values, so it requests X based on those and if the engine gives X then everything is fine, if the ECU gets Y, then it'll do what it thinks is best - which could be anything from backing it off 5% to having a total spaz and putting it into limp mode.
It could be a bug in the code, there might be a value based on the assumption that X piece of hardware exists, when in fact it in a smal minority of cases it is Y and therefore doesn't perform in the way they expect. But then why is it fine when it gets it right?
Are there certain situations that the fault is more apparent, when it is hot, WOT, etc etc? I assume you have logs from when the car faults? What is different?
There's plenty of things that don't register either. We found with my old car that when the butterfly stuck on the EGR valve because it was full of oily goo it'd choke the car for a moment and cause it to stutter. Nothing in the logs indicated this was happening, we found it by chance. Likewise when the actuator was sticking, it'd request boost, not get it and back off, then the actuator would come free and deliver a sh*t load in one lump.
The wrong low pressure fuel sensor didn't register either, there could be a load of other similar examples too.
Asking a map writer to diagnose a fault is difficult. They only know so much and although many deviations in logs point to certain areas of failure, without a hard fault code, it's a best guess. Common faults you get to know, something strange and where do you start? That's why someone's eyes and hands are essential at the same time.
What you need to do is stop scattergunning bits at the car, you've wasted a grand so far either by your desperation to fix it, or by someone else's bad advice. You can't diagnose a fault by throwing stuff at it.
I'm sure someone on here can help if you post up all the fault logging stuff.
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^^^
Process of elimination is a good idea. To rule out this being a SW issue have you considered trying talking to APR and asking them if they would be willing to give you a free Stage 2+ trial? I think it could be worth a shot and would give confidence to whether this is a SW issue or not.
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i think that would be a great idea TBH. JKM do both APR and REVO so could flash your car back if it doesnt work
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Thanks for the advice Tony :happy2:
Just a couple of things.
Firstly Keith at JKM (who is a bit of a Guru on the 2.0TFSi) has spent hours going over logs i have sent him.
He also has logs from when the car was on the Dyno.
When i first left JKM after the install the Car was set at Boost 8 Timing 7 Fuel 7. After about a month of logs going back & forth to Keith and me changing various parts, we got the Car running as he would expect a Stage 2+ K03 car on Settings Boost 9 Timing 4 Fuel 8. The logs were basically the same as 5 other Stage 2+ cars (which were all using the original version of the code). There was no timing pull whatsoever. But the car would not reproduce the road logs on the Dyno. Basically between 2000-3000 rpm the AFR rate was all over the place before settling to a flat line as it should. Keith said if we could get the car to produce on the Dyno what it does on the road i would have 'normal' stage 2+ Dyno print out
Kev Hall at REVO also looked at them and over the period of a couple of weeks got me to do various logging runs at various settings and logging specific blocks. This led to me being put on the settings i am now which is Boost 9 Timing 7 Fuel 6.
The problem is that on the Dyno the car will NEVER request maximum boost. IIRC the most it would request was 2350mbar and only very briefly. However put the car on the road it will request Max and more often than give more than the requested boost (requests 2550mbar and often gives 2560-2580mbar)
Over a period of 3 months the car was logged in numerous ways. Both before and after every piece of hardware was changed. It also went back on the RR twice hoping the problem had been fixed. It hadn't
The car doesn't do it's weird stuff at any particular time and i tried to replicate it numerous times but it wont. The actual road logs show the car is running fine max timing pull is -3 on a single cylinder and not for very long (read a couple of hundred RPM)
The fuel trims are fine etc. Nothing from the logs would indicate a problem. Which as you say without a specific fault code it's going to be hard to diagnose. This i why i replaced everything that could possibly be replaced in an attempt to locate the problem. Starting with the cheapest to the most expensive.
Maybe my last post was a bit misleading as more often than not the car performs as i would expect. It's not as dramatic as i had been told but i can get comparable in gear times as other Stage 2+ cars.
I would be more inclined to believe it was a hardware problem if it was just my car. But three cars with the same problem at the same point in the rev range is in my opinion too much of a coincidence.
As i said in an Earlier post i am not slagging REVO off. I think they have a very good product. BUT it is not Flawless as they seem to think and (apart from Kev Hall) my experience of there customer service is very very poor. If this turns out to be a hardware problem then i will publicly apologise to REVO.
Carl :happy2:
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have you considered trying talking to APR and asking them if they would be willing to give you a free Stage 2+ trial? I think it could be worth a shot and would give confidence to whether this is a SW issue or not.
I have done mate but kinda of forgotten about it as i wanted to get the problem sorted. More so just because it would always always bug me.
But as i am getting to the end of my tether with it now i think i may just try that.
Carl :happy2:
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Yeah, by the sounds of it because there's a link between the cars you have common problem.
My thoughts are your cars all have a common piece of hardware that is either wrong from the factory or is a slight variation on the norm, so it is performing differently for whatever reason. Code that works fine on car A and doesn't on car B only does so because there is something different between the two.
So it either needs routing out and replacing if it is the wrong part, or the code needs tweaking to factor for it being different. Fair enough from my point of view if they didn't know a different part existed or was wrong, how could they tell? - but you can't excuse refusal to accept that possibility or poor relations with your customers. I hope whoever you work with from now on improves on that.
Your problem is obviously finding that bit. I still can't help leaning towards that fuel pressure sensor, I've heard of a few cases now of wrong ones. Mine had a VW recall, a few others have found them by chance with no word from VAG - so they clearly haven't a clue which batches were problematic. After that, I'm out of ideas but will ask some people I know to see if they've seen anything like it? I do know a master tech too, so its possible I can get a VW insight.
If it helps, a symptom of mine with the incorrect sensor was on kickdown/dropping gears - it'd get confused at the request for so much power, freeze for a few seconds and then dump a load of power in a scatty way. I thought it was the DSG doing it, it just so happened to go away when they did the recall swap, so can only conclude it was that.
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Cheers Tony.
Just a point though my car is a Skoda vRS but hopefully the pressure sensor will be the same part.
How much are they by the way and could i replace it myself?
Carl :happy2:
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^^ Edited my post above to include a symptom. It was also intermittant.
The sensor will be the same, I'm 99% sure. Price and fitting I haven't a clue - all I know was it was recall notice 24m5, so maybe somone could look the details up on that and find it??
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if its the low pressure fuel sender it will be a pain in the ass but do-able yourself carl. mine got replaced under warrantee when it went tits up requesting crazy fuel pressures or lack of at times, causing limp mode alot.
I had a mobile RAC VAG technician fit it at my work address, however he said he would never ever do it outside of a grage again, as everything from throttle body pipes, alternator, and lots lots more had to come out to get access to it as it sits right below the bottom left of the inlet manifold. he was doing it for a few hours.
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I've had APR software on all of my recent cars which finished on their Stage 2 with APR HPFP and RSC exhaust.
As others have said including Pabs and Tony I would definately concur with their thought's as the issue is more thna likely to be a hardware issue. The TFSI can be a funny beast and various problems and issues have been found out over the years when trying to extract optimum performance.
Revo I'm sure have pretty well perfected their style of code and APR have recently revised their code. I found that the APR delivery was very OE and smooth but they are quite aggressive initially which is when typically seen on APR and GIAC software. Some of this can be put down to conditions on the day or the RR used. Their V2 software has smoothed out some of this as John_O can confirm.
I sold my Edition 30 which was stunning but needed more and more investment to make perfect such as big brakes, a diff and clutch and a larger FMIC.....there goes another £4-5k...oouch!! I had the car a year but it had to go with mortgage, kids and other financial pressures I was getting fed up lashing out thousands but I was pleased with APR 's product but in reality I don't think there are huge differences between APR and Revo except the map switching.
I'm now driving a E46 BMW which has a lovely chassis and engine and is filing the gap until what I really want which is an RS4 or 996 C2 .
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I've had APR software on all of my recent cars which finished on their Stage 2 with APR HPFP and RSC exhaust.
As others have said including Pabs and Tony I would definately concur with their thought's as the issue is more thna likely to be a hardware issue. The TFSI can be a funny beast and various problems and issues have been found out over the years when trying to extract optimum performance.
Revo I'm sure have pretty well perfected their style of code and APR have recently revised their code. I found that the APR delivery was very OE and smooth but they are quite aggressive initially which is when typically seen on APR and GIAC software. Some of this can be put down to conditions on the day or the RR used. Their V2 software has smoothed out some of this as John_O can confirm.
I sold my Edition 30 which was stunning but needed more and more investment to make perfect such as big brakes, a diff and clutch and a larger FMIC.....there goes another £4-5k...oouch!! I had the car a year but it had to go with mortgage, kids and other financial pressures I was getting fed up lashing out thousands but I was pleased with APR 's product but in reality I don't think there are huge differences between APR and Revo except the map switching.
I'm now driving a E46 BMW which has a lovely chassis and engine and is filing the gap until what I really want which is an RS4 or 996 C2 .
your old car is having al of that done lol
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I've had APR software on all of my recent cars which finished on their Stage 2 with APR HPFP and RSC exhaust.
As others have said including Pabs and Tony I would definately concur with their thought's as the issue is more thna likely to be a hardware issue. The TFSI can be a funny beast and various problems and issues have been found out over the years when trying to extract optimum performance.
Revo I'm sure have pretty well perfected their style of code and APR have recently revised their code. I found that the APR delivery was very OE and smooth but they are quite aggressive initially which is when typically seen on APR and GIAC software. Some of this can be put down to conditions on the day or the RR used. Their V2 software has smoothed out some of this as John_O can confirm.
I sold my Edition 30 which was stunning but needed more and more investment to make perfect such as big brakes, a diff and clutch and a larger FMIC.....there goes another £4-5k...oouch!! I had the car a year but it had to go with mortgage, kids and other financial pressures I was getting fed up lashing out thousands but I was pleased with APR 's product but in reality I don't think there are huge differences between APR and Revo except the map switching.
I'm now driving a E46 BMW which has a lovely chassis and engine and is filing the gap until what I really want which is an RS4 or 996 C2 .
your old car is having al of that done lol
I know...at VWR...all the jobs I would have done if I'd kept it. Other priorities in life I'm afraid take precedence over cars :sad1:
Still it was a good experience and it was good to know what it was capable of but sadly my good old 200bhp MK2 16v was still lapping 2 secs a lap quicker at Combe so another 5k was vital to make the car super quick on track and it was too nice to rag it regularly on track.
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Carl, now this is a disclaimer as i'm not responsible for you spending the cash as i could be wrong :popcornsoda: but i would definately be suspecting a fuel sensor problem. I believe that when they act up they don't show a fault code either..
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haven't really read all the thread.
but two things.
from reading the driving impressions , where one time the power is there and gone the other. that really sounds like LIMP Mode.
you have to take into consideration that all tuning companies play with the Limp mode and it is not as extreme "power off" as in stock.
you might want to do a check on lambada and EGT going on full throttle from 2nd to 6th since logs on a dyno vary a lot from logs on the road as heat builds up.
as for who's tune to go for . i hope to start my build thread next week.
i can just tell you one thing . when you will see the numbers my car made (Cupra) on APR stage1 , tested on a Dynapack dyno you will be truly amazed :)