MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Technical Workshop => Topic started by: RobC on October 24, 2019, 11:50:31 am
-
Can anyone confirm what adjustable Top Mounts will work with Eibach Pro Street S coilovers please? Ive looked at KW and contacted them but been told 'Im afraid our top mounts will not fit this kit as the threaded section of the piston rod is too short to accept these as its designed to work with the OE top mount only.'. As far as I was aware the Eibach kit uses the same setup?
The reason I need them is for Negative Camber. Lowered on 19's with Michelin's & Cayenne calipers is proving not particularly user friendly! On a similar note, has anyone had any experience of PMC Motorsport Camber Plates?
Rob
-
The Ground Control mounts should work. Maybe the H&Rs too if they still make them. You might also need the SuperPro adjustable ball joints if top mounts alone don't give you enough camber.
With some top mounts you also need a helper spring, or a longer primary spring if your struts don't have enough threads to take up the slack. You'll see what I mean when you assemble it all. Springs aren't an issue though as dozens of rates and lengths are available from Eibach.
-
The Ground Control mounts should work. Maybe the H&Rs too if they still make them. You might also need the SuperPro adjustable ball joints if top mounts alone don't give you enough camber.
With some top mounts you also need a helper spring, or a longer primary spring if your struts don't have enough threads to take up the slack. You'll see what I mean when you assemble it all. Springs aren't an issue though as dozens of rates and lengths are available from Eibach.
Thanks Pudding. I dont think Ill get away with the adjustable ball joints as as much as they'll give me more negative camber they'll do so by pulling the bottom of the wheel away from the car which will inevitable pull it closer to the wheel arch, which is my current issue.
The Eibach coilovers dont us a traditional coilover spring from memory and thats what concerns me about what KW said, if the threaded section is too short it may not be possible to run ANY type of adjustable Top Mount as all Ive seen are designed for conventional coilover setups.
-
Just so we're on the same page with the geometry, your tyres are fouling the top of the arch, where they normally rust? I think you said in a different thread you need less castor because the tyres are also hitting the front of the arch, next to the bumper?
More negative camber will tuck the top of the wheel inboard, and less castor will push the wheel more towards the driver. You can't run less than OEM Castor (+7.4) though because the angle is set into the suspension tower. You'd need a method to pull the wheel back from underneath.
Sounds like you need a bit of both! What width are the 19s? Any spacers? Even the OEM 18s are borderline when driving hard on bumpy corners so you must be on the struggle bus with those beasts!
Yeah I was told the same with my Ohlins coilovers but standard coilover springs from the Eibach shop fit just fine. I think they're a German metric version of regular 2.5" ID springs, so 60mm or something daft. The Ohlins only have +/- 15mm of adjustment either side of their standard 20mm drop, so I had nowhere near enough threads to use the Ground controls. I don't like helper springs and I never got around to ordering longer springs, so I just gave up on the idea!
I would like to revisit them at some point as there's more to solid top mounts than angle adjustments. Way better steering feel and damping for starters.
Anyway, as for you issue, maybe some pics would help? Shame you're not round the corner otherwise I'd pop round and assess the situation!
-
Can you not get wider arch wings in GRP or carbon fibre? That's probably what I would do if it were me. They look cool as well :driver:
-
Yeah, SRS-Tec do them. Thats my next option but at c.£300 per pair plus paint I was trying to find a cheaper solution first! The car needs a good going over so it wouldnt just be wings that got done.
Interestingly have found these that in broken English suggest ‘Suitable for any suspension, which are mounted on factory pads’, assuming that means factory top mounts?
https://silverproject.eu/product/camber-plates-domlager-vw-golf-mk-5-v-6-vi-r32-gti-audi-tt-leon/?currency=GBP (https://silverproject.eu/product/camber-plates-domlager-vw-golf-mk-5-v-6-vi-r32-gti-audi-tt-leon/?currency=GBP)
-
Just so we're on the same page with the geometry, your tyres are fouling the top of the arch, where they normally rust? I think you said in a different thread you need less castor because the tyres are also hitting the front of the arch, next to the bumper?
More negative camber will tuck the top of the wheel inboard, and less castor will push the wheel more towards the driver. You can't run less than OEM Castor (+7.4) though because the angle is set into the suspension tower. You'd need a method to pull the wheel back from underneath.
Sounds like you need a bit of both! What width are the 19s? Any spacers? Even the OEM 18s are borderline when driving hard on bumpy corners so you must be on the struggle bus with those beasts!
Yeah I was told the same with my Ohlins coilovers but standard coilover springs from the Eibach shop fit just fine. I think they're a German metric version of regular 2.5" ID springs, so 60mm or something daft. The Ohlins only have +/- 15mm of adjustment either side of their standard 20mm drop, so I had nowhere near enough threads to use the Ground controls. I don't like helper springs and I never got around to ordering longer springs, so I just gave up on the idea!
I would like to revisit them at some point as there's more to solid top mounts than angle adjustments. Way better steering feel and damping for starters.
Anyway, as for you issue, maybe some pics would help? Shame you're not round the corner otherwise I'd pop round and assess the situation!
Sorry Pudding, was looking on my phone and completely missed this reply! Ive rectified the caster issue, I removed the Powerflex ALK and fitted a set of SuperPro standard replacements. Feels good and moved the wheel back in to place so happy days. The issue I now have is Ive lowered the car as low as it will go on the Eibachs (it started as a 'lets see' and has now become a 'must have') and so I still get rubbing, although now it is at the top of the arch and arch liner. Its OK during regular driving but any adverse camber when turning or speed bumps and its rubbing or scraping away.
The wheels are BBS CH026 so 19x8 ET50 but spaced 11mm to clear the Cayenne calipers which is what has caused this whole debacle in the first place! However, they look cool as flip and work which is a bonus so they arent going anywhere. Im running Michelin PS4S' in 225/35 and as anyone who has had these tyres knows these are the best of the best, so although I could opt for a 215/35 tyre Im reluctant to do so as Michelin dont offer one.
Camber top mounts seem the next logical step as long as I can find a reasonably priced setup. Without taking everything off and measuring angles etc Im not going to know how much room a degree or 2 will give me but my current hope is 'enough'. Otherwise its SRS Tec wings as you said and then 80% of the car will get paint and 100% of my wallet will get hurt!!
RE your comment about the springs, if you search Google for the Pro Street S Golf Mk5 coilovers you'll see the springs arent a conventional shape. They start narrow at the bottom, get wider in the middle and then narrow again at the top, although this may just be a red herring if the actual issue is lack of thread length on the piston itself...
-
Could get the arches rolled?
Worked for me when I had ultralows on mine
-
Could get the arches rolled?
Worked for me when I had ultralows on mine
Ive rolled mine to an extent. How far were they done? I was advised against going flat on these as they lose their strength, and that was by Arch Enemy.
-
Yeah, SRS-Tec do them. Thats my next option but at c.£300 per pair plus paint I was trying to find a cheaper solution first! The car needs a good going over so it wouldnt just be wings that got done.
Interestingly have found these that in broken English suggest ‘Suitable for any suspension, which are mounted on factory pads’, assuming that means factory top mounts?
https://silverproject.eu/product/camber-plates-domlager-vw-golf-mk-5-v-6-vi-r32-gti-audi-tt-leon/?currency=GBP (https://silverproject.eu/product/camber-plates-domlager-vw-golf-mk-5-v-6-vi-r32-gti-audi-tt-leon/?currency=GBP)
Ah OK. Well the Ground Control mounts are £450ish which is way more than the wings :surprised: I've always fancied a wide arch Golf, in the same style as the old VW motorsport MK4 and Polo Rally kit car look. They were proper steel though. I don't think they ever made such a thing for the MK5.
With those mounts, the English translation isn't great but it looks like they mean they can take an OEM bearing. You won't be able to use the rubber part of the OEM mount. With any of these style of mounts, you have to make sure they've angled the bearing face correctly. They're not flat, hence why the OEM ones have arrows on them. I'd wager the cheap ones are just flat and will kill the bearings off pretty quickly.
The Ground Controls are expensive but they've taken all of that into account, and they drop right onto the majority of coilover kits.
-
Could get the arches rolled?
Worked for me when I had ultralows on mine
Ive rolled mine to an extent. How far were they done? I was advised against going flat on these as they lose their strength, and that was by Arch Enemy.
Yeah the lip stops them wobbling about and folding in if you lean on them.
-
Just so we're on the same page with the geometry, your tyres are fouling the top of the arch, where they normally rust? I think you said in a different thread you need less castor because the tyres are also hitting the front of the arch, next to the bumper?
More negative camber will tuck the top of the wheel inboard, and less castor will push the wheel more towards the driver. You can't run less than OEM Castor (+7.4) though because the angle is set into the suspension tower. You'd need a method to pull the wheel back from underneath.
Sounds like you need a bit of both! What width are the 19s? Any spacers? Even the OEM 18s are borderline when driving hard on bumpy corners so you must be on the struggle bus with those beasts!
Yeah I was told the same with my Ohlins coilovers but standard coilover springs from the Eibach shop fit just fine. I think they're a German metric version of regular 2.5" ID springs, so 60mm or something daft. The Ohlins only have +/- 15mm of adjustment either side of their standard 20mm drop, so I had nowhere near enough threads to use the Ground controls. I don't like helper springs and I never got around to ordering longer springs, so I just gave up on the idea!
I would like to revisit them at some point as there's more to solid top mounts than angle adjustments. Way better steering feel and damping for starters.
Anyway, as for you issue, maybe some pics would help? Shame you're not round the corner otherwise I'd pop round and assess the situation!
Sorry Pudding, was looking on my phone and completely missed this reply! Ive rectified the caster issue, I removed the Powerflex ALK and fitted a set of SuperPro standard replacements. Feels good and moved the wheel back in to place so happy days. The issue I now have is Ive lowered the car as low as it will go on the Eibachs (it started as a 'lets see' and has now become a 'must have') and so I still get rubbing, although now it is at the top of the arch and arch liner. Its OK during regular driving but any adverse camber when turning or speed bumps and its rubbing or scraping away.
The wheels are BBS CH026 so 19x8 ET50 but spaced 11mm to clear the Cayenne calipers which is what has caused this whole debacle in the first place! However, they look cool as flip and work which is a bonus so they arent going anywhere. Im running Michelin PS4S' in 225/35 and as anyone who has had these tyres knows these are the best of the best, so although I could opt for a 215/35 tyre Im reluctant to do so as Michelin dont offer one.
Camber top mounts seem the next logical step as long as I can find a reasonably priced setup. Without taking everything off and measuring angles etc Im not going to know how much room a degree or 2 will give me but my current hope is 'enough'. Otherwise its SRS Tec wings as you said and then 80% of the car will get paint and 100% of my wallet will get hurt!!
RE your comment about the springs, if you search Google for the Pro Street S Golf Mk5 coilovers you'll see the springs arent a conventional shape. They start narrow at the bottom, get wider in the middle and then narrow again at the top, although this may just be a red herring if the actual issue is lack of thread length on the piston itself...
Springs - Ah OK, my bad. I should have looked them up first! I hate those bloody things. Swap em' out for some normal coilover springs :smiley: I actually have a set of front and rear regular Eibach coilover springs in my stock cupboard. You're welcome to try them and see if they fit. Up to you mate.
Caster - excellent news :happy2:
Arch rubbing - you definitely need more negative camber mate. As discussed previously, I think a combination of the SuperPro ball joints and top mounts should work. That will give you about 3 degrees negative. You'll have to live with more frequent tyre changes though :grin:
You can do some trigonometry to figure out how much 1, 2 or 3 degrees at the hub would give you in distance moved inboard. Don't ask me though as I'm crap at maths :grin:
-
Could get the arches rolled?
Worked for me when I had ultralows on mine
Ive rolled mine to an extent. How far were they done? I was advised against going flat on these as they lose their strength, and that was by Arch Enemy.
Pretty much lip tucked in flat, arch still feels solid...this was by arch enemy too
-
Could get the arches rolled?
Worked for me when I had ultralows on mine
Ive rolled mine to an extent. How far were they done? I was advised against going flat on these as they lose their strength, and that was by Arch Enemy.
Pretty much lip tucked in flat, arch still feels solid...this was by arch enemy too
Strange! They are a franchise though so maybe one guy has different opinions to the other? They need painting now anyway so maybe I can get a bodyshop to sort them properly.
-
Just so we're on the same page with the geometry, your tyres are fouling the top of the arch, where they normally rust? I think you said in a different thread you need less castor because the tyres are also hitting the front of the arch, next to the bumper?
More negative camber will tuck the top of the wheel inboard, and less castor will push the wheel more towards the driver. You can't run less than OEM Castor (+7.4) though because the angle is set into the suspension tower. You'd need a method to pull the wheel back from underneath.
Sounds like you need a bit of both! What width are the 19s? Any spacers? Even the OEM 18s are borderline when driving hard on bumpy corners so you must be on the struggle bus with those beasts!
Yeah I was told the same with my Ohlins coilovers but standard coilover springs from the Eibach shop fit just fine. I think they're a German metric version of regular 2.5" ID springs, so 60mm or something daft. The Ohlins only have +/- 15mm of adjustment either side of their standard 20mm drop, so I had nowhere near enough threads to use the Ground controls. I don't like helper springs and I never got around to ordering longer springs, so I just gave up on the idea!
I would like to revisit them at some point as there's more to solid top mounts than angle adjustments. Way better steering feel and damping for starters.
Anyway, as for you issue, maybe some pics would help? Shame you're not round the corner otherwise I'd pop round and assess the situation!
Sorry Pudding, was looking on my phone and completely missed this reply! Ive rectified the caster issue, I removed the Powerflex ALK and fitted a set of SuperPro standard replacements. Feels good and moved the wheel back in to place so happy days. The issue I now have is Ive lowered the car as low as it will go on the Eibachs (it started as a 'lets see' and has now become a 'must have') and so I still get rubbing, although now it is at the top of the arch and arch liner. Its OK during regular driving but any adverse camber when turning or speed bumps and its rubbing or scraping away.
The wheels are BBS CH026 so 19x8 ET50 but spaced 11mm to clear the Cayenne calipers which is what has caused this whole debacle in the first place! However, they look cool as flip and work which is a bonus so they arent going anywhere. Im running Michelin PS4S' in 225/35 and as anyone who has had these tyres knows these are the best of the best, so although I could opt for a 215/35 tyre Im reluctant to do so as Michelin dont offer one.
Camber top mounts seem the next logical step as long as I can find a reasonably priced setup. Without taking everything off and measuring angles etc Im not going to know how much room a degree or 2 will give me but my current hope is 'enough'. Otherwise its SRS Tec wings as you said and then 80% of the car will get paint and 100% of my wallet will get hurt!!
RE your comment about the springs, if you search Google for the Pro Street S Golf Mk5 coilovers you'll see the springs arent a conventional shape. They start narrow at the bottom, get wider in the middle and then narrow again at the top, although this may just be a red herring if the actual issue is lack of thread length on the piston itself...
Springs - Ah OK, my bad. I should have looked them up first! I hate those bloody things. Swap em' out for some normal coilover springs :smiley: I actually have a set of front and rear regular Eibach coilover springs in my stock cupboard. You're welcome to try them and see if they fit. Up to you mate.
Caster - excellent news :happy2:
Arch rubbing - you definitely need more negative camber mate. As discussed previously, I think a combination of the SuperPro ball joints and top mounts should work. That will give you about 3 degrees negative. You'll have to live with more frequent tyre changes though :grin:
You can do some trigonometry to figure out how much 1, 2 or 3 degrees at the hub would give you in distance moved inboard. Don't ask me though as I'm crap at maths :grin:
I ordered a set of the Silver Projects Top Mounts in the end after reading some half decent reviews of them online. They are waiting for me at home along with slightly narrower spacers for the rear so fingers crossed this ends my rubbing woes! Will report back once I can get my mate to fit them for me.
-
I have Silver project top mounts on my Lupo - for that application they are the only off the shelf option available -for the money they are OK
Powder coating seems ok
I will say the bolts that came with mine were a bit low rent so, replaced them with better ones.
They tend to use off the shelf bearings, that can be replaced, so uprated replacements may be possible.
-
The spring bearings are standard VW ones (but probably cheap patterns as genuines are around 25 quid each) and the damper rod support bearings can be replaced with higher quality NMB or Aurora bearings from somewhere like Merlin Motorsport.
That's what I did with my Ground Controls as the supplied spherical bearings were poop.
-
So the Top Mounts arrived and have been fitted and overall Im very happy with them. Not had adjustable Top Mounts before to compare but the quality seems very good. They came with Febi bearings which are OE quality and were easy to adjust when fitted.
Set camber to around -2° and has pretty much eradicated any rubbing, only catches slightly on lock at camber so very happy with the outcome, especially considering how relatively cheap they were. Fitted slightly narrower spacers on the rear too and dialled in a bit more camber so thats pretty much sorted that, only rubs on harsh double-bumps but its also probably 5mm lower on the rear so will likely put the asjuster collar back in at some point to bring it up.
Anyway, happy overall and shall enjoy being able to drive it without wincing everytime!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Great news! A far cheaper and more elegant solution than getting the grinder out :grin:
Any rumbling/whirring noises in the cabin on coarse tarmac? That's generally a sign you have solid top mounts! Some are noisier than others though.
-
Great news! A far cheaper and more elegant solution than getting the grinder out :grin:
Any rumbling/whirring noises in the cabin on coarse tarmac? That's generally a sign you have solid top mounts! Some are noisier than others though.
Slightly noisier in the cabin but have uprated the subframe mounts at the same time so harder to determine if they are the reason. Not that noticeable though tbh and they have done the job so Im a happy bunny. Would definitely recommend for the money.
Rob
-
More good news! I bet the steering feels a bit better also. The dampers also respond better without having to compress a lump of rubber before moving!
-
More good news! I bet the steering feels a bit better also. The dampers also respond better without having to compress a lump of rubber before moving!
Forgot to reply to you @Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) !
In all honesty, Im not sure what benefits Ive noticed or why. The reason for my cryptic answer is 2 fold -
1) I didnt notice any immediate improvement in steering feel after having the top mounts fitted. I dont drive the car that aggressively so maybe thats why but certainly nothing major to make me take notice. What I did notice is the very slight tram lining and feel through the wheel which I assume is down to the additional Camber added.
2) At the same time (there or there abouts) I fitted a Polo 6R GTi steering wheel. In doing such I replaced the SWCM for a CH version and then had to follow the steering adaption & assist process again. Now the later SW is noticeably less 'chunky' than the Mk5 but that seems to suit me, so instantly noticed the difference but the other thing I noticed was that it felt like I was getting more steering angle for the same effort, as in I was having to turn the wheel less to turn the same amount. Now this would typically be associated with the extra camber I thought? However I didnt notice it after the Top Mounts but was very aware after I fitted the steering wheel so wondered if it were that I was now having more steering assist applied than previous? I know this was adjustable on the early Mk5's but fixed on the later so could resetting/re-adapting the values give me more assistance?
Either way Im happy with how it feels now...and will be even more so by the end of the day hopefully as after swapping in the Polo wheel I since sourced and now have a Clubsport steering wheel being delivered! :driver: (Polo wheel will be for sale with airbag if anyone is interested :wink:)
-
Interesting! I've used solid top mounts in other VWs and felt the improvement straight away. Maybe because the MK5's rubber bit is pretty thin compared to older VWs, it's already pretty stiff to begin with.
I'm not sure a different SWCM would affect the steering weight? That's part of the steering rack controller I thought? I know what you mean though, you get the same increased steering angle from the same steering wheel input when fitting Passat hubs, but there is a mechanical reason for that :happy2:
Glad you're happy with it now and got the arch rubbing sorted :smiley: