MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Janner_Sy on March 16, 2010, 04:45:04 pm
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this is from a thread on briskoda, so are quotes, but makes for interesting reading.
essentially it is all about Ferrodo DS2500 pads being listed as track day only.
here are some main quotes
DS2500's are not approved to ECE R90 ("Reg 90") and therefore must not be used on public roads on vehicles manufactured from end of 1999 onwards. Basically DS2500's are for off-road only and not legal for use on the road. You insurance will not be valid. Look for a pad which is Reg-90 approved if you want to use it on the road - your insurance will cover you with any Reg 90 pad.
There is as far as I am aware no requirement for aftermarket parts to be type approved.
Scrub that what he said is right since 2001 in the UK in actual fact.
Further to my reply further up, just to add emphasis, here is some marketing text re. the DS2500's from Balance Motorsports..
"Ferodo DS2500 is a very popular pad for trackday users and also for outright circuit use on the shorter events. DS2500's chief characteristic is it offers a very high level of friction. DS2500 also offers excellent pedal modulation and feel. DS2500 gives you the confidence to drive accurately and smoothly on track, braking late but safe. DS2500 pads have been a big seller from Balance Motorsport for some time. DS2500 pads are also very driver friendly having excellent pedal modulation and feel. Please remember these pads are not reg 90 approved and therefore any car made later than 2000 should only use these pads on track!"
I believe that Ferodo manufacture a 'performance pad' which IS reg 90 approved and is a milder version of the DS2500.
i know alot of guys on here reccomend them and are using them as well. could be bad news if your insurance is invalidated as a result of these inpads in a crash
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Even the fast road compound from ferodo isn't Reg90 approved.
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When did Police start doing roadside checks on brake pad compound..? :wink:
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I run the ferodos. I knew when I fitted them they were iffy. But it's a calculated risk
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You may find you have issues with you insurance! :driver:
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what a lot of bollox mine have these pads in them and trust me they stop the car dead in its tracks no matter if they are hot or cold :confused:
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i dont doubt they stop the car really well, but that wouldnbt stop the insurance company voiding any cover if you crashed into someone, by stating that your brakes dont conform to the required regulations.
@jonny cant imagine the cop shop checking this but the insurance guys wo9uld in the event of a collision if they see the car is modified, as they will be looking for excuses to not pay
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When did Police start doing roadside checks on brake pad compound..? :wink:
Not roadside checks - but if you knock somebody over in a modded car (regardless of who or why), they will take it to pieces for you free of charge in the process of gathering evidence and assembling a case against you.
:wink:
I was under the impression that DS2500's were Reg 90 but obviously every day is a schoolday somebody better tell AP.
Reg90 covers does however cover a multitude of requirements stopping power when cold / temp range being one of many, its a little like some of the very advanced brake fluids not getting classed as Dot5 - they may only be "Dot4" and massively outperform the best Dot5 fluids but they might not meet only one of the range of criteria that qualifys it as Dot5 such as freezing temperature.
So becasue we cant use it in Northern Russia in winter it gets a Dot4 label and not Dot5. Reg 90 only really means that the pads come in within +/- 15% of OEM - if they are 16% better then no approval, or indeed its cheaper for the manufacturers just not to bother applying for approval as its a "specialist" pad and a fraction of their market compared to how many pads they sell for Mondeos and Transits.
Simple test I think that on the back of the pad its got a E11 stamp = Reg90
DS2500's are a compromise pad , Ive always advocated two sets of pads one track/one road.
And will people stop upsetting Matt by saying anything bad about the VWR brakes please :booty: :wink: :happy2:
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:P :signLOL:
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Pah!! Poppycock! DS2500's may not conform to certain regulations but they are a damned sight safer on the road than the stock brakes imo. In the several years I've been running DS2500's as part of the AP Racing BBK there have been inevitable occasions when I feel they have saved me from an accident [sorry, I should probably say "incident" as the term "accident" might be against the regulations].
My insurer Greenlight has accepted my complete and very long list of modifications and has raised no issue.
Does this question arise because of using DS2500's with oem brake components rather than a professionally designed overall brake kit package?
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I was under the impression that DS2500's were Reg 90 but obviously every day is a schoolday somebody better tell AP.
....AP now use their own brake pads: APF404 - Consider where Ferodo DS2500, Pagid Blue (RS4-2), Pagid Blue RS421 or Carbo-TechXP10 are currently used. The APF404 is sold as a High Performance Road and Track pad.
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Given the paint has burnt off the back of all my pads, the DS Performance reg 90's and various track only pads, rendering them unidentifiable... they'd have a fecking good job trying to tell which from which!!
I have to mark them when removing each set to remember what they are, they're just a black pad.
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Pah!! Poppycock! DS2500's may not conform to certain regulations but they are a damned sight safer on the road than the stock brakes imo. In the several years I've been running DS2500's as part of the AP Racing BBK there have been inevitable occasions when I feel they have saved me from an accident [sorry, I should probably say "incident" as the term "accident" might be against the regulations].
My insurer Greenlight has accepted my complete and very long list of modifications and has raised no issue.
Does this question arise because of using DS2500's with oem brake components rather than a professionally designed overall brake kit package?
The term you are looking for is 'collision' Robin.
Personal opinion has nothing to do with it. And telling your insurance company still doesn't make the pads road legal. It's no different to running a chav-tastic HID conversion kit - the kits aren't type approved, so game over in the event of a collision, especially a fatal one and you are at fault! DS2500/DS3000 are not road legal pads. It's very simple. If you want to run performance pads on the road you need to be using something like Ferodo DS Performance (new name for DS2000) pads - which I use and they are excellent. They are a different compound and I believe it is to with the rate at which they reach optimum operating temperature.
This isn't a new issue, it's widely known that DS2500/DS3000 aren't road legal. If you go to the performance section of Demon Tweeks, under pads - they dont even list DS2500/3000, only DS Performance - you have to switch to the motorsport section. It has nothing to do with the setup, be it OEM, BBK, etc etc - it's all about the compound of the pad.
I promise you that if you have an accident and it comes to light that you dont have road legal pads (or road legal anything for that matter...) you are going to be in hot water. Granted it depends on the severity of the collision as to the level of detail that the investigation will go into, but you're a braver man than I if you are prepared to take that risk. I can't go into detail but I am very close to this sort of information and rest assured that people do get caught out by things like this all time. And do end up in serious trouble. Agree with it or not, its the law.
What makes my blood boil with insurance issues like this the cavalier attitude some people adopt. It's all well and good just thinking about your own welfare and the your own car, but what about the third party? The person whose car you hit or knock down? You might feel that the insurance company not paying out to repair or replace your car is an acceptable risk but what about the other car(s) you hit, the people you injure, even the lamp post you knock down? If your insurance is void because of a modification you have made, you become personally liable for these costs - they dont just go away because your insurer wont pay out. You will personally be sued for person injury, local authorities will bill you for road side repairs and third party insurance co's will be after you to recover their costs as best they can. And when they cant recover their costs, who do they pass this cost on to? Those of us who do things properly.
I know of one girl I used to work with who had to spend her entire house deposit (£25k+) settling a claim personally after an accident when it came to light she wasnt properly insured. If you get caught out like this, you will end up in court, possibly bankrupt, definitely no license and possibly even in prison. Is that really worth it for a set of brake pads?
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Very well said animal. This isn't a matter of personal opinion or what you prefer or do not prefer; for whatever reason these pads are not type approved for the road and as such should not be used.
Given the paint has burnt off the back of all my pads, the DS Performance reg 90's and various track only pads, rendering them unidentifiable... they'd have a fecking good job trying to tell which from which!!
I have to mark them when removing each set to remember what they are, they're just a black pad.
Detailed analysis will be able to determine the makeup of the compound fairly easily.
It's like that guy with the Toyota Prius in the US which apparently suffered from a runaway accelerator - within 2 days Federal, Toyota, and other independent engineers were able to determine that his claim did not stand true and it was revealed as a hoax.
I'm sure he thought as well "no-one will be able to tell what I've done."
Laypeople are often astonished at what engineers can determine, from not very much as well. There's simply no point in running the risk for what is arguably a very minor performance gain under a given set of circumstances over a legal, type-approved pad operating under the same circumstances.
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Oh, I've no doubt it could be done if they wanted to find out - but on the flip side I'd have a hard time proving my road pads are actually DS Performance, as they're now unidentifiable to anyone just visually checking I'm legal.
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Oh, I've no doubt it could be done if they wanted to find out - but on the flip side I'd have a hard time proving my road pads are actually DS Performance, as they're now unidentifiable to anyone just visually checking I'm legal.
Which is the point I was making.. If the insurance company is going to the lengths of sending off brake pad material for compound analysis.. Cross referencing against stock compound on the premis that there 'may' be an indiscrepancy in the material then I think your already well in the sh*t..
In my opinion there are much more dangerous things to be worried about.. Like volcanoes.. And angry birds..
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Personally if I found out something on my car was illegal I'd change it immediately, regardless of whether I thought it made the car safer or not.
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Oh, I've no doubt it could be done if they wanted to find out - but on the flip side I'd have a hard time proving my road pads are actually DS Performance, as they're now unidentifiable to anyone just visually checking I'm legal.
Which is the point I was making.. If the insurance company is going to the lengths of sending off brake pad material for compound analysis.. Cross referencing against stock compound on the premis that there 'may' be an indiscrepancy in the material then I think your already well in the sh*t..
In my opinion there are much more dangerous things to be worried about.. Like volcanoes.. And angry birds..
I can cite two cases from memory, one where a GPS was sent to its manufacturer for interogation to determine speed/acceleration etc at the point of impact to help proove who was at fault and another case when brake light bulbs were actually put under a microscope to determine whether they were on or not at the moment of impact - i.e. did the driver actually react and brake (the filaments deform differently depending on whether they are hot:on or cold:off). I think that these two scenarios are proof enough that investigations can, and do, go to the level of detail referred to above.
As I said before, it does clearly depend on the severity of the incident as to how far the investigation goes. Like you say Jonny, you're probably already in trouble at this point as you would've had to have killed someone for it to go this far, where it becomes a criminal investigation, but it could in theory happen to any of us. At least if your insurance is still valid you are covered financially for court appearances, costs and the compensation to the victims next of kin. Yes, you'll probably be looking at some time at Her Majesty's pleasure which might initially eclipse anything else, but you'll be broke when you finally get out as well in you've voided your insurance!
And Jonny, I'm not sure your insurance would cover you for a volcano, I'm pretty sure that comes under an 'act of God'. :happy2:
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Personally if I found out something on my car was illegal I'd change it immediately, regardless of whether I thought it made the car safer or not.
It does beg the question though, how would you know if you bought the car and it already had the pads fitted...?
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Wow!
Thankyou, animal :smiley:. I had no idea about the legality of DS2500's. I best wear them out asap and then go legal.
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Wow!
Thankyou, animal :smiley:. I had no idea about the legality of DS2500's. I best wear them out asap and then go legal.
Are there any other pads out there for your AP bbk though?
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people on here have alot more obvious illegal mods and yet are worried about brake pads :grin:
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this is the reason i posted this. potential real implications involved here
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@ poverty if they do, then they do. The more fool them.
all my mods were declared but i was oblivious to this issue so im as involved here as most others.
if others have got this issue, then who cares.they either havent declared for some reason(of which if they hit as a result id not be to happy) or they are covered. its almost like soneone not having insurance
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@ poverty if they do, then they do. The more fool them.
all my mods were declared but i was oblivious to this issue so im as involved here as most others.
if others have got this issue, then who cares.they either havent declared for some reason(of which if they hit as a result id not be to happy) or they are covered. its almost like soneone not having insurance
Not saying this thread is pointless, be aware of the risks and make your own decisions imo, but alot of people are running decats for example, and thats not exactly hard to miss compared to non road legal pads!
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I believe Volcanos are classed as force majeure like earthquakes.
I once read a legal document where the getout clause included "Acts of God, Poltergeists, and other Supernatural Powers"...
Not saying this thread is pointless, be aware of the risks and make your own decisions imo, but alot of people are running decats for example, and thats not exactly hard to miss compared to non road legal pads!
Wrong. On the road, it's vital to remember that it is not only your own safety/health/well-being but that of others. If you act irresponsibly and kill yourself that's one thing; but it is morally wrong to infringe upon someone else's safety/health/well-being through your own irresponsibility.
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I believe Volcanos are classed as force majeure like earthquakes.
I once read a legal document where the getout clause included "Acts of God, Poltergeists, and other Supernatural Powers"...
Not saying this thread is pointless, be aware of the risks and make your own decisions imo, but alot of people are running decats for example, and thats not exactly hard to miss compared to non road legal pads!
Wrong. On the road, it's vital to remember that it is not only your own safety/health/well-being but that of others. If you act irresponsibly and kill yourself that's one thing; but it is morally wrong to infringe upon someone else's safety/health/well-being through your own irresponsibility.
This world is full of irresponsible people, and it doesnt require non road legal brake pads to infringe on someone elses safety etc etc etc
Therefore, be aware of the risks, and make your own decisons and take the necessary steps to not kill anoyone, and lets be clear here, these pads are here to help slow us down quicker, fitting them isnt all of a sudden going to make you more likely to run someone over. Plus, it might be illegal in the UK, but in germany it could be fully legal. Does using these pads in the UK make me a bad person, but in german just a enthusiast?
Let common sense prevail.
Now, lets turn this mob onto the numerous "premium car" drivers who fit budget tyres to their vehicles :happy2:
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This world is full of irresponsible people, and it doesnt require non road legal brake pads to infringe on someone elses safety etc etc etc
Therefore, be aware of the risks, and make your own decisons and take the necessary steps to not kill anoyone, and lets be clear here, these pads are here to help slow us down quicker, fitting them isnt all of a sudden going to make you more likely to run someone over. Plus, it might be illegal in the UK, but in germany it could be fully legal. Does using these pads in the UK make me a bad person, but in german just a enthusiast?
Let common sense prevail.
Now, lets turn this mob onto the numerous "premium car" drivers who fit budget tyres to their vehicles :happy2:
No, it's a harmonised standard, so if it's illegal for street use in the UK it's more likely than not illegal in the rest of the EU, and illegal is illegal whatever way you look at it. These pads may help you slow down quicker under certain circumstances but there are reasons they are not type approved.
Let me tell you as an auto engineer that the various standards are good things that are there for a reason, they have been adopted for a reason, and they should be followed, and noncomplying equipment should not be fitted on a whim because you feel they make you stop better.
I'm not saying that these things will automagically make you infringe upon other people's safety or make you less irresponsible, it's just that 1) they have not been approved for road use for a reason and 2) said reason could possibly one day injure someone.
In my experience common sense has little basis in reality; I rely on good ol' horse-sense myself.
Definitely agree on budget tyre people though :scared: they're crazy.
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Wow!
Thankyou, animal :smiley:. I had no idea about the legality of DS2500's. I best wear them out asap and then go legal.
Are there any other pads out there for your AP bbk though?
....Only AP's new pads which they have manufactured for themselves and this is very recent.
I've missed in this thread when Rule 90 began to apply. If AP Racing, for example, sell their BBK like mine as suitable for High Performance Road use then surely they don't do so as knowingly illegal.
Is there not an element of 'direct cause' inasmuch that in an accident the fault must be shown to be the brakes and their 'failure'?
All this lowest common denominator stuff combined with so much bureaucratic legislation begins to potentially lose sight of the important basics: Effective braking power. Are my DS2500's really going to throw me into an accident?
Now I know, I will change them next time but I have yet to be convinced that my car's brakes are dangerous.
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Just an additional thought and I am in no way rejecting animal's posted information about insurance etc and the worst scenarios.
However, I'd be inclined to challenge an insurer's rejection if (as in my case) all the mods have been formally declared and listed, on the basis of the insurer having prior full knowledge and accepting to give insurance.
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And Jonny, I'm not sure your insurance would cover you for a volcano, I'm pretty sure that comes under an 'act of God'.
What you'll be needing in THIS case is.......
Volcano Insurance :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fak2.static.dailymotion.com%2Fstatic%2Fvideo%2F938%2F790%2F15097839%3Ajpeg_preview_large.jpg&hash=ecc43a678da26936870ed86ed6b6aa9426f0dcda)
In all fairness, it would be VERY interesting to contact the your insurance company and ask what they think..... despite as in most people's cases, declaring all mods, would that hold up in terms of covering you?
Personally, I think not - you'd be notifying them that you have an illegal mod (for a specific use). The fact that they're ignorant to the details doesn't make it legal.
all imho, and moot really, as I don't run these pads.
Dan :grin:
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:indifferent: standard pads are £40 axle set :notworthy:
If you are having bother with these pads on the road, ie over heating....you have other issues with the law! :fighting:
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Agree with truckie... I have completely standard brakes and yeah they're not best ever but do the job going to work and back and the odd blast... Track is a different matter but if I was doing that i'd just have a 2nd set :confused:
These threads always go this way because we like to put our own 'common sense' slant on the law, but it's the law and agree or not we gotta abide by it... :booty:
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:indifferent: standard pads are £40 axle set :notworthy:
If you are having bother with these pads on the road, ie over heating....you have other issues with the law! :fighting:
Without sounding like a pussy thats not a bad point.........
Lets just remind ourselves that the Reg90 is not an amount of numbers or a blanket specification, it is +/-15% of the standard OEM pads So if you're GT3 RS comes off the line in Stuttgart with thinly disguised RS29 pads (They call it P90) then any aftermarket pads have got a lot to live upto.
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:indifferent: standard pads are £40 axle set :notworthy:
If you are having bother with these pads on the road, ie over heating....you have other issues with the law! :fighting:
:congrats: :congrats:
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TO CLEAR A FEW THINGS UP HERE GUYS
Ok, ive been on the phone to some people in the "know" today.
How things stand is if you have pads on OEM calipers that do not conform to Reg 90 then they you are doing so illegally, although if you have a BBK and are fitting say the DS 2500 then that is fine. Mental isnt it ? :confused:
Solution BBK group buy :wink:
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:jumpmove: nice one :jumpmove: who told you this ?
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AP Mate, i was getting worried so gave them a bell, my BBK goes on in a couple of weeks.
The reason is that you are using non standard calipers so the pads dont need to conform to reg 90, the pads do need to be suitable for road use which ap say the DS2.5ks are :happy2:
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:drinking: thanks for this
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No bother mate :smiley:
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by OEM does that mean to the specific car or in general its been fitted to any car?
I'm thinking about R32/S3 brakes on a GTi which didnt get them OEM , but they are OEM for an S3 ....
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i would think its stock fitted brakes like the s3 iron single piston brakes and i would think to class it as a bbk it would have to have more that 2 pistons in the caliper
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^^^^
Nice one, gobbler! :drinking:
I was going to ask AP the same but you beat me to it. It's also exactly as I expected.
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Here in Italy Ferodo Ds2500 aren't legal, but they are wonderful as brake pads !! :)
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:mad: Holy Thread revival.
Need a definitive answer on this as i'm in need of some new pads soon. :driver:
DS2500 pads... Are these road legal with the NQSBBK?
:popcornsoda:
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Just sandpaper the name off the back plate..... :happy2:
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As someone else said if your car isn't for track use and you have to upgrade the brakes, breaking the law on brake pads should be the least of your worries....
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The only time anyone would ever look at the brake pads is if you were involved in a fatal road accident, other than that most cops, even traffic wouldn't have a clue what different pads were.
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As someone else said if your car isn't for track use and you have to upgrade the brakes, breaking the law on brake pads should be the least of your worries....
Question was posed due to the below, so wanted some more info as to the legality.
Wasn't asking for a recitation of an already posted comment.
AP Mate, i was getting worried so gave them a bell, my BBK goes on in a couple of weeks.
The reason is that you are using non standard calipers so the pads dont need to conform to reg 90, the pads do need to be suitable for road use which ap say the DS2.5ks are :happy2:
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As someone else said if your car isn't for track use and you have to upgrade the brakes, breaking the law on brake pads should be the least of your worries....
Question was posed due to the below, so wanted some more info as to the legality.
Wasn't asking for a recitation of an already posted comment.
AP Mate, i was getting worried so gave them a bell, my BBK goes on in a couple of weeks.
The reason is that you are using non standard calipers so the pads dont need to conform to reg 90, the pads do need to be suitable for road use which ap say the DS2.5ks are :happy2:
Someones touchy! :laugh:
I wasn't even responding to you, I was just adding my opinion to a thread I'd never seen before. Apologies for agreeing with another post! :happy2:
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Very informative thread this. I'm about to have a full set of S3 parts fitted to mine. These pads were/are on the list of components to fit as the car does occasional track days.
My question now is what compliant parts are available that are suitable for road and track?
There's a question mark over ATE Super Blue brake fluid I suppose now.
Off Googling now...
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ate super blue is good!
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I'm in total agreement with what you say regarding fitting non approved items but please, even in the event of a fatal accident, the prosecuting authorities will not be analysing pad compounds. They will be concentrating on the bigger contributor such as driver misjudgement/impairment/excessive speed/using mobile etc.