MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Technical Workshop => Topic started by: tony_danza on February 02, 2009, 02:04:29 pm

Title: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: tony_danza on February 02, 2009, 02:04:29 pm
I've got an ECS insert and it doesn't do 100% what I thought it would.

How do I get the balance of no wheel hop and little/no vibration?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: jonnyc on February 02, 2009, 02:28:51 pm
I've got an ECS insert and it doesn't do 100% what I thought it would.

How do I get the balance of no wheel hop and little/no vibration?

Unfortunately added vibration is a direct trade off with wheel hop.. All you can do is find a compromise between the two..

I have the VF engineering mounts up top, engine and gearbox, with the VF pendulum mount and the VWR solid race insert, this replaces the whole rubber insert, and is pressed directly into the mid subframe.. This is a pretty extreme road setup, but im happy with it, and it really doesn't bother me having loads of vibration in the car..

I have zero wheel hop, but plenty of vibration and noise..

I think that the VWR road mount kit would be suitable. You know its there, but you dont have the big vibrations from the solid parts..
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: tony_danza on February 02, 2009, 02:41:57 pm
Cheers, as you say I think I need that compromise.

You've mentioned you run yours raked too, do that have an effect on the traction and does it give any negative, like changing the understeer?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: GTIjames on February 02, 2009, 02:45:18 pm
agree withwhat  jonnyc said, I got the vf engine mounts set of 3, and while the first few hundred miles vibrations were  :jumping: but soon calmed down as you get used to them.

Wheel hop is greatly reduced with them on, i just notice the wheel spin now. although my times were not great at the strip probably down to my over zealous use of the throttle, nerves and inexperience - but still no hop.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fu347%2Fjnewby99%2Fmotormountpicture.jpg&hash=d97ccb305648368c5674a0a5dc1ec38fb6a1856a)
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: tony_danza on February 02, 2009, 02:57:06 pm
So, you need the lot then?.. I think I was possibly just using the MKIV principle of just doing the equivilent of the dogbone.  :confused:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: jonnyc on February 02, 2009, 03:03:40 pm
So, you need the lot then?.. I think I was possibly just using the MKIV principle of just doing the equivilent of the dogbone.  :confused:


I have a set of custom OEM mounts that I have had resin filled. These are awesome, cheap and look completely standard.. You could give them a go if you like mate?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: tony_danza on February 02, 2009, 03:11:29 pm
Yeah? that'd be cool. I'll PM you..
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 02, 2009, 05:10:53 pm
So, you need the lot then?.. I think I was possibly just using the MKIV principle of just doing the equivilent of the dogbone.  :confused:

....Having driven VWR/RacingLine's awesome 300R a few times I'm very keen on engine mounts being my next mod.
Discussing it with Mark at VWR he recommended that I just do the 'dogbone' mount first and then later consider if I want the other two. He said it was the one which makes the biggest difference by helping to deliver the power.

Personally, I've now past the stage of my GTI being a comfy oem car and I love a bit of noise and plenty of tactile 'feel'. Their 'Fast Road' engine mounts aren't at all uncomfortable.

The principle is exactly as Jonny and James have posted.

HTH


Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: illyun on February 02, 2009, 06:41:52 pm
So, you need the lot then?.. I think I was possibly just using the MKIV principle of just doing the equivilent of the dogbone.  :confused:

....Having driven VWR/RacingLine's awesome 300R a few times I'm very keen on engine mounts being my next mod.
Discussing it with Mark at VWR he recommended that I just do the 'dogbone' mount first and then later consider if I want the other two. He said it was the one which makes the biggest difference by helping to deliver the power.

Personally, I've now past the stage of my GTI being a comfy oem car and I love a bit of noise and plenty of tactile 'feel'. Their 'Fast Road' engine mounts aren't at all uncomfortable.

The principle is exactly as Jonny and James have posted.

HTH




Sod the vibrations.. I'm going for the track aluminum mounts  :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: - especially after I cocked up my burnout  :sad: - never done one before so although I got the fronts spinning, I didn't do it long enough for the water to leave the wheels and subsequently got mad wheel hop and traction issues (although not wheel spin though thanks to the Quaife) in the first 2 seconds and its ironic as its the first time I have expereinced that since the Quaife was fitted... The R300 had them and I drove it for 3 days and never noticed any vibrations  :laugh:  That exhaust on the R300 is a bit of a noisy beast though  :surprised:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: stealthwolf on February 02, 2009, 07:01:11 pm
What's wheel hop?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: illyun on February 02, 2009, 07:16:41 pm
What's wheel hop?

Do you drive like a granny?  :grin: :grin: :grin:













On a more serious note, its when you get a nasty juddering when trying to accelerate fast from stand still in a powerful fwd car - like the GTI for example.  I didn't get too much wheel hop in my standard GTI except when the tyres were a bit low, but the Ed30 gets it quite a bit if you are very heavy with your right foot.
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: WhiteGTI on February 02, 2009, 07:20:36 pm
Think I'll give VWR a call soon to discuss mounts. My understanding on them is somewhat limited, so I want to know what the best ones/setup/types are to go for!
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: Top Cat on February 02, 2009, 07:21:07 pm
What's wheel hop?

You will know when you get it it feels like some one is slapping dash with a metal hand.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: WhiteGTI on February 02, 2009, 07:26:37 pm
Yeah as TC says you will know! Feels like the wheel is very very quickly getting air, and then crashing back on the road.
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: stealthwolf on February 02, 2009, 07:58:09 pm
HMmm.......I think the TC must kick in before that happens to me. I just get nasty juddering and TC light flashing like mad.
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: WhiteGTI on February 02, 2009, 08:00:14 pm
Well I suppose juddering can also describe it. But yeah, you would feel it more if TC was switched off I guess.
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: VC on February 02, 2009, 09:22:50 pm
whats wheel hop  :evilgrin: :angry015: :angry015: :evilgrin:

lol









......taxi!
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 02, 2009, 10:53:26 pm
....

The Wheel Hop is a derivative of The Monster Mash, a dance craze of the 1970's :evilgrin:

Yes, juddering is the way I describe it. It's completely eliminated in my car now, but I haven't ever tried Launch Control or the quarter-mile.
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 02, 2009, 10:55:39 pm
Think I'll give VWR a call soon to discuss mounts. My understanding on them is somewhat limited, so I want to know what the best ones/setup/types are to go for!

....Speak to Mark Farmer at VWR - He's really helpful and won't hard sell you anything.
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: tony_danza on February 03, 2009, 10:33:38 am
whats wheel hop  :evilgrin: :angry015: :angry015: :evilgrin:

lol

......taxi!

Ha ha, what's bogging down? Touche! :P

So from what I understand there's 4 stages of "control", so to speak?

1. Uprated insert - poly or solid
2. Uprated lower mount - with uprated insert
3. Fast road mounts - full set
4. Race spec mounts - full set

And you're only just starting to control wheel hop from stage 2 onwards?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 03, 2009, 11:03:23 am
^^^^
Doesn't suspension also play a part in helping to control wheel hop?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: MAT ED30 on February 03, 2009, 11:05:43 am
after doing the walk kit and springs mine does not hop any more
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: Top Cat on February 03, 2009, 11:14:07 am
I have the kw coilies and walk kit and mine was like a kangaroo last week.  :party:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: MAT ED30 on February 03, 2009, 11:16:24 am
must try harder  :signLOL:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: tony_danza on February 03, 2009, 11:26:46 am
^^^^
Doesn't suspension also play a part in helping to control wheel hop?

I'm sure it will on the whole, but if you eliminate it at the mounts, then all you're chasing through the suspension is wheelspin control?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: Top Cat on February 03, 2009, 11:34:34 am
must try harder  :signLOL:

I didn't mean at the pod  :laugh: my times where 3 seconds faster than yours  :innocent:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: MAT ED30 on February 03, 2009, 11:37:42 am
must try harder  :signLOL:

I didn't mean at the pod  :laugh: my times where 3 seconds faster than yours  :innocent:

what u did a 12  :signLOL:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: Top Cat on February 03, 2009, 11:38:46 am
must try harder  :signLOL:

I didn't mean at the pod  :laugh: my times where 3 seconds faster than yours  :innocent:

what u did a 12  :signLOL:

Nope but i saw your 18.5  :P
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: MAT ED30 on February 03, 2009, 11:42:27 am
must try harder  :signLOL:

I didn't mean at the pod  :laugh: my times where 3 seconds faster than yours  :innocent:

what u did a 12  :signLOL:

Nope but i saw your 18.5  :P

not me fella as mine are 15 something
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 03, 2009, 12:36:57 pm
I have the kw coilies and walk kit and mine was like a kangaroo last week.  :party:

....I'm not an expert but I've been told that how coilovers are setup may result in bounciness etc.
As I say, I'm not an expert and might have got this slightly wrong but I am sure that the more adjustability there is, the trickier it can be to find that sweet-spot.

Why does this remind me of women? Complicated and sometime tricky to keep sweet? :evilgrin:


Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: john_o on February 03, 2009, 01:37:01 pm
its also worth considering the amount of play already on the OE mounts, each car will be different.
My engine moves waaaay too much, I think theres a huge variance, just check out at RR days the  amount of movement .
(mileage,usage etc I guess play a large part  :wink:)

for me
std map / std mounts = bad hop but had to be forced in wet conditions.
remap+insert in lower mount = better but still happens under certain circumstances (pod was painfull at times  :sad:)

however its still way short of good enough, I suspect my pounts are humped.
I could put OE back on but Im just gonna go straight to VWR Road spec (maybe race for the lower mount)
I have considered just the BSH lower mount kit (new bar + metal insert) and keep OE side mounts but Im not sure that will work (it would however be easier to fit)

def better on cars with uprated suspension, the OE stuff certainly doesnt damp the high freq hop!


Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: Greeners on February 03, 2009, 01:41:24 pm
I have the kw coilies and walk kit and mine was like a kangaroo last week.  :party:

Mine does too, as anyone in the stands on Sunday can vouch for  :jumping:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 03, 2009, 03:12:49 pm
^^^^
I didn't realise you had KW coilies, Nathan - If so, why are you interested in the KoniFSD's?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: WhiteGTI on February 03, 2009, 03:47:38 pm
^^

I'm pretty sure that Nath doesn't have KW Coilies, he was just saying that his car also hops like TC's with the WALK and uprated suspension.

IIRC he has just lowered his car on Eibach (?) springs....

 :smiley: :smiley: :jumpmove:

Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: Hurdy on February 03, 2009, 04:47:43 pm
I have the kw coilies and walk kit and mine was like a kangaroo last week.  :party:

Skippy...Skippy...Skippy the bush Kangarooooooo?
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: luca on February 03, 2009, 04:48:13 pm
Yes nath just has the eibach springs and walk kit. Same as me :smiley:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: MAT ED30 on February 03, 2009, 04:49:04 pm
Yes nath just has the eibach springs and walk kit. Same as me :smiley:

and me  :smiley:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: Top Cat on February 03, 2009, 04:53:08 pm
I have the kw coilies and walk kit and mine was like a kangaroo last week.  :party:

Skippy...Skippy...Skippy the bush Kangarooooooo?

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fmm104%2Ftomashandmilly%2Fkangarootreehugger.gif&hash=6d08f8b9feae66150cca53bebc05ae90edaac44d)

or kangaroo cat.  :laugh:

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fmm104%2Ftomashandmilly%2F741902542_882a035f1c.jpg&hash=9e294a0fd8cca676acfcd8da8d06c1e05795536b)
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 03, 2009, 05:24:38 pm
Yes nath just has the eibach springs and walk kit. Same as me :smiley:

and me  :smiley:

....Then I wouldn't drive the 300R if I were you, Mat!! :evilgrin:

I think I know what's going to happen....Not straightaway, but as funds and family commitments allow :evilgrin:

She's The Temptress!

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_INK%2FRRdevil_VWRdemo.jpg&hash=d24722a30d7f9b35f548d77966069cf91455e388)
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: illyun on February 04, 2009, 10:46:18 pm
Had the 300R for the whole of last week  :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

Amazing car  :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 04, 2009, 11:54:41 pm
Had the 300R for the whole of last week  :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

Amazing car  :drool: :drool: :drool:

....barstewards!! She's mine! I was her first driver (outside VWR staff). I'm jealous! :evilgrin:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: illyun on February 05, 2009, 12:54:50 am

....barstewards!! She's mine! I was her first driver (outside VWR staff). I'm jealous! :evilgrin:

Oh sorry Robin... never knew you felt that way.


Let me just repeat that again. 

I had the car for a whole week - five days - 108 hours - 6480 minutes of pure unadultered driving bliss  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: illyun on February 05, 2009, 12:57:08 am
I reckon VWR are going to get a lot of phone calls asking what their cheapest mod is and if they could take their time in fitting it - ideally a whole day and could they 'test drive' the R300 while they are at it :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: yin on February 13, 2009, 10:09:43 pm

I have a set of custom OEM mounts that I have had resin filled. These are awesome, cheap and look completely standard.. You could give them a go if you like mate?

Got any more info on resin filled mounts
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: vwrascal on February 13, 2009, 10:37:11 pm
after reading the whole thread, my understanding is that the ecs dogbone insert doesnt really do alot then???
dammit! just pur-chased one    :chicken:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: bacillus on February 13, 2009, 11:03:10 pm
after reading the whole thread, my understanding is that the ecs dogbone insert doesnt really do alot then???
dammit! just pur-chased one    :chicken:
the insert does make a big difference but doesn't completely kill the wheel hop issue.
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: WhiteGTI on February 13, 2009, 11:07:54 pm
after reading the whole thread, my understanding is that the ecs dogbone insert doesnt really do alot then???
dammit! just pur-chased one    :chicken:
the insert does make a big difference but doesn't completely kill the wheel hop issue.

Yeah some say it makes a difference, some dont. I think overall it's worth having it, plus its not expensive at all!!
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: tony_danza on February 14, 2009, 03:42:47 pm
It certainly reduces the shift in the lump, so it is worth doing.. but you can still provoke wheel hop and it generally comes at the worst time!
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 14, 2009, 04:02:56 pm
....

It's also supposed to reduce the risk of breaking exhaust mounts on a more powerful remapped car.

[Sorry if this has already been said]
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: Greeners on February 14, 2009, 06:40:48 pm
after reading the whole thread, my understanding is that the ecs dogbone insert doesnt really do alot then???
dammit! just pur-chased one    :chicken:

It's there to stop your downpipe twisiting and snapping more than anything  :happy2: Usefull and cheap so why not  :wink:
Title: Re: Eliminating wheel hop - how?
Post by: RedRobin on February 14, 2009, 07:24:37 pm
^^^^
Milltek now supply these free with their downpipe.