MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: berg on December 23, 2010, 12:30:39 pm
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Hi guys, as some of my earlier posts said my ED 30 bought in September is first car have modded.
Have gone Revo Stg 1 already and wanted to upgrade other bits before considering going Stg 2 or maybe miss it out and go straight 2+!
Was looking at this rough order as cant afford big brake conversion yet and getting WALK fitted on NYE
1.) WALK and then Bilstein B12 (PDT looking into this for me at mo)
2.) Ferodo DS2500 on for now and then VWR/R32/Movit big brakes in future or hopefully a Dave B kit if he doing them then!
3.) VWR/Sachs clutch with VWR/Peloquin LSD and VWR engine mounts.
Would then move to Stg 2+ with intercooler, hpfp, tbe, intake etc and would then look at taking on track and buying a runabout also for tootling to work etc.
Have i missed any essential items off to enable me to get most out of car as is a standard 5 dr model?
Thanks and Merry Xmas!
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Hi guys, as some of my earlier posts said my ED 30 bought in September is first car have modded.
Have gone Revo Stg 1 already and wanted to upgrade other bits before considering going Stg 2 or maybe miss it out and go straight 2+!
Was looking at this rough order as cant afford big brake conversion yet and getting WALK fitted on NYE
1.) WALK and then Bilstein B12 (PDT looking into this for me at mo) If you are going on track then you also need anti roll bars(best handlling mod IMO). Also look into the TT lower control arms as these will increase your cornering grip by a large margin
2.) Ferodo DS2500 on for now and then VWR/R32/Movit big brakes in future or hopefully a Dave B kit if he doing them then! If your fitting bigger front brakes then also consider the S3 rears as well. it wil help balance the car under breaking better
3.) VWR/Sachs clutch with VWR/Peloquin LSD and VWR engine mounts. VWR mounts seem pretty expensive as our most things with their name on them. JKM have much cheaper options on their site. http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsimotormounts.htm#tfsi (http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsimotormounts.htm#tfsi)
Would then move to Stg 2+ with intercooler, hpfp, tbe, intake etc and would then look at taking on track and buying a runabout also for tootling to work etc.
Have i missed any essential items off to enable me to get most out of car as is a standard 5 dr model?
Thanks and Merry Xmas!
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imo id just go straight to stage 2+ as you already have the map, i wouldnt bother with handling and brakes untill youve done the performance mods. So id go with a milltek/blueflame turbo back exhaust, then forge twintake/ EVOMS etc etc, FMIC, you can get a few different ones, i think THS is the best but the s3 cooler works just fine, then get the HPFP and map accordingly,
once you have your 350bhp, you soon see what other parts need to be upgraded to cope :wink:
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I've chosen the THS engine mounts over the likes of vwr and BSH, due to our car also has to be used daily as yours. they (THS) are a compromise of the very trackoriented options and the sluggish OEM ones.
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imo id just go straight to stage 2+ as you already have the map, i wouldnt bother with handling and brakes untill youve done the performance mods. So id go with a milltek/blueflame turbo back exhaust, then forge twintake/ EVOMS etc etc, FMIC, you can get a few different ones, i think THS is the best but the s3 cooler works just fine, then get the HPFP and map accordingly,
once you have your 350bhp, you soon see what other parts need to be upgraded to cope :wink:
On the contrary, I would do the handling mods before the power mods - no point having power and not having traction, stable chassis and brakes to boot. Having Stage 2+ power can undermine your health if you do not have brakes to match, but it depends what type of work out the car is going to have. Any track work?
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^^^^^ X2
As the saying goes power is nothing without control.
Having invested a considerable amount of money tuning my vRS if I were doing it all again it would be Stage 1 followed by brakes, suspension, other handling (ARB's, ALK, Diff etc) in that order. What those mods were would depend on the use of the car. As i never track the car i wouldn't have anything track focused if it made day to day driving unbearable Then after that I would look at upping power and things like engine mounts etc.
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thanks for your input people, will check out JKM engine mounts etc. I MAY want to go on track but like vrs carl's motor i may decide not to depending on family circs so will potentially just be after a well sorted road car.
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x3... if you know your going BIG power, get the car setup first with brakes, ARBs suspension etc etc, then when you get the power youll be laughing!
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^^^^ x4
I think the ED30's brakes are well below par for the power even at stock
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id say get your WALK on and some pads, then get suspension, an intake/ HPFP and keep it on stage 1 until you save for the turbo back system :happy2:
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If you stick the walk on you need the geometry sorting. Then when you change the suspension it needs doing again. do them both the same time and save some money
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my geometry was fine when i had the walk and mount done :happy2:
you need it setting up with suspension tho deffo
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If you stick the walk on you need the geometry sorting. Then when you change the suspension it needs doing again. do them both the same time and save some money
spoke to awesome and they said the geometry might need adjusting but not in every case.
doh - did not realise would need to have it redone as bilstein kit not going on at same time :stupid:
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I agree with getting the suspension and brakes done first. Then once you have the mapping sorted go for some Toyo R1R's for summer/track useage - awesome tyre and will make your car much safer and faster around the track :happy2:
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imo id just go straight to stage 2+ as you already have the map, i wouldnt bother with handling and brakes untill youve done the performance mods. So id go with a milltek/blueflame turbo back exhaust, then forge twintake/ EVOMS etc etc, FMIC, you can get a few different ones, i think THS is the best but the s3 cooler works just fine, then get the HPFP and map accordingly,
once you have your 350bhp, you soon see what other parts need to be upgraded to cope :wink:
On the contrary, I would do the handling mods before the power mods - no point having power and not having traction, stable chassis and brakes to boot. Having Stage 2+ power can undermine your health if you do not have brakes to match, but it depends what type of work out the car is going to have. Any track work?
I totally aggree, but imo id prefere to start on one part then finish it, then start on the next, so start with susspension (brushes, coilovers, arb's lower arms etc etc) then engine, then brakes, and so on. Thats how im doing my R, just consentrating on one part then moving onto the next. also with 350bhp on std brakes will soon be changed. :jumpmove:
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Im all for the handling mods to be done first. But for something as simple as a £500 stage 1 remap to get your self an extra 50hp, it is worth it before the suspension sage begins.
id go
stage 1 remap
all suspension mods
brake mods
Stage 2+ mods(exhaust/IC/fuel pump/intake)
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^^^^^ X2
As the saying goes power is nothing without control.
Having invested a considerable amount of money tuning my vRS if I were doing it all again it would be Stage 1 followed by brakes, suspension, other handling (ARB's, ALK, Diff etc) in that order. What those mods were would depend on the use of the car. As i never track the car i wouldn't have anything track focused if it made day to day driving unbearable Then after that I would look at upping power and things like engine mounts etc.
Ahem :P
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tend not to read your posts carl :wink: only joking :P
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tend not to read your posts carl :wink:
In the words of Cathy Tate - BOVVERED :P
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Im all for the handling mods to be done first. But for something as simple as a £500 stage 1 remap to get your self an extra 50hp, it is worth it before the suspension sage begins.
id go
stage 1 remap
all suspension mods
brake mods
Stage 2+ mods(exhaust/IC/fuel pump/intake)
yup sounds good to me, i think i will keep the car a fair while prob till im 40 (33 now) so will get my moneys worth out of the mods. The bug has bitten me a bit with the stg 1 map and some of the minor cosmetic mods have made so far, will get round to some pics at some stage
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First mod should be LSD pure and simple as it will put the power on the road and drive so much better once its done :smiley: i wish i had done the diff first if i am honest :smiley:
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First mod should be LSD pure and simple as it will put the power on the road and drive so much better once its done :smiley: i wish i had done the diff first if i am honest :smiley:
How could I forget that mod :ashamed:
Best mod ever on my old ED30 :happy2:
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mmmm lsd eh - so what are best options - VWR? Peloquin? Quaife?
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Vwr is a quaife :happy2: and that's what I have
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Vwr is a quaife :happy2: and that's what I have
ah ok just had a look on the vwr site - do you have to go to MK for them to fit things or will they deliver and then get your local garage to fit?
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there is also wavetrac. which is meant to be really good. its torque biasing but acts almost like a plate diff. pelequin have apparently brung out a new design of LSD. BDMalex on here has one on his vRS
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I wouldn't take a diff to any old garage. You need a gearbox specialist to take apart your box and fit the diff.
If I were you I would get another box and get the diff put in that if you can. Otherwise the diff is dead money as soon as you fit it. At least with a spare box you can sell it on afterwards or put it in another golf if you ever get one.
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speak to Al on here (DJ horice). he has a wavetrac LSD already fitted in a spare gearbox that he is selling. (might already be gone though
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22699.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22699.0.html)
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Vwr is a quaife :happy2: and that's what I have
I had Quaife too :happy2:
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I had all the power before 99.9% of other people and also had the car as "standard" with all the power at one point too. Admittedly mine was a Leon Cupra with the bigger brakes, but its my opinion that having big power on standard suspension, drivetrain and brakes (Cupra Brakes) is both doable and safe.
However, looking back, the mods I would consider necessary aside from the power are:
1) Engine Mount and gearbox mount upgrade as it reduces wheel hop which breaks components.
2) Uprated springs and possibly dampers - I had Eibach Sportlines on standard shocks and they were fine, but Eibach Coilies were good too. Reduces pitch and lean.
These are the only two things I would add with power upgrades - never tried an Ed30's brakes in ernest but you have to think about this simple fact with brakes - the standard car does over 150mph. Stage 2+ may add 15-20mph more. Realistically, is anyone really going to be driving at those speeds on a regular basis to need better brakes unless you do track work? Bigger power does not make standard brakes any less effective. Therefore in my opinion a brake upgrade is really not neccessary, but remember I am really only used with the 345mm brakes.
Its my personal opinion that unless you plan to track your car, don't bother with Anti Roll Bar Upgrades, and I have to say I am not convinced the Anti Lift Kit is really necessary either as the standard bushes do the same thing as the WALK pretty much. In addition, having had a Wavetrac Limited Slip Differential, again, I would not say that is entirely necessary unless you are intent on going from A to B as quickly as possible, and if you were, I would advise getting an S3 if you want a car with the same engine. You no doubt would lose accelaration after 80-90mph, but usable power at lower speeds will make up for it. In a straight line on the move after initial take off, and the Ed30/Cupra will take an S3 assuming a dry day.
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once you have your 350bhp, you soon see what other parts need to be upgraded to cope :wink:
To be honest, I would agree with this. Whats the point of putting on mountain climbing boots to climb a hill unless you know you need them? How many people actually properly get the good of all the components they buy? I know I threw cash at my last car, and I am really not convinced some of the components were worth doing - specifically the Anti Roll Bars and Anti Lift Kit.
Having said that, I would probably look at component longevity over anything else if working within a budget. Higher power and torque will move the engine around severely and cause more severe wheel hop which will break downpipes, damage driveshafts, see the flywheel bang itself a lot inside the gearbox and do other suspension/drivetrain components no good. In addition, standard shocks and springs will see the car lean around enough to cause more traction/braking issues. Hence my thoughts on engine mounts and springs/shocks upgrades.
If you want to to track work, then look at anti roll bars, LSD's, uprated brakes, anti lift kits etc etc.
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once you have your 350bhp, you soon see what other parts need to be upgraded to cope :wink:
To be honest, I would agree with this. Whats the point of putting on mountain climbing boots to climb a hill unless you know you need them? How many people actually properly get the good of all the components they buy? I know I threw cash at my last car, and I am really not convinced some of the components were worth doing - specifically the Anti Roll Bars and Anti Lift Kit.
Having said that, I would probably look at component longevity over anything else if working within a budget. Higher power and torque will move the engine around severely and cause more severe wheel hop which will break downpipes, damage driveshafts, see the flywheel bang itself a lot inside the gearbox and do other suspension/drivetrain components no good. In addition, standard shocks and springs will see the car lean around enough to cause more traction/braking issues. Hence my thoughts on engine mounts and springs/shocks upgrades.
If you want to to track work, then look at anti roll bars, LSD's, uprated brakes, anti lift kits etc etc.
....I don't agree with you. It's asking for problems if you up the power to then discover what other upgrades you need - When? When they present themselves as problems? Oops, my engine keeps cutting out, I need an upgraded fuel pump, for example. What you're advising doesn't make good sense IMO.
Neither do I agree that you only need to improve the handling if you're doing track days. Anti-roll bars are a great improvement for fast road use unless you enjoy lurching around when driving enthusiastically. Even 200 bhp is a fair amount of power for FWD, so you need all the help you can get. 350 bhp on an otherwise standard car is frankly stupid - You want safe driveability.
Handling mods first, power mods second.
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....I don't agree with you. It's asking for problems if you up the power to then discover what other upgrades you need - When? When they present themselves as problems? Oops, my engine keeps cutting out, I need an upgraded fuel pump, for example. What you're advising doesn't make good sense IMO.
Neither do I agree that you only need to improve the handling if you're doing track days. Anti-roll bars are a great improvement for fast road use unless you enjoy lurching around when driving enthusiastically. Even 200 bhp is a fair amount of power for FWD, so you need all the help you can get. 350 bhp on an otherwise standard car is frankly stupid - You want safe driveability.
Handling mods first, power mods second.
Power mods would include a fuel pump though Robin. My opinion on Anti Roll Bars are the opposite of others - they are the last thing someone should change especially on a road car. They make no difference for use on the road - I was every bit as quick round bends in my old car with stock and uprated anti roll bars.
Power first, and make your mind up what you need at that point, but be aware that things can break with standard parts fitted with big power.
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Power mods would include a fuel pump though Robin. My opinion on Anti Roll Bars are the opposite of others - they are the last thing someone should change especially on a road car. They make no difference for use on the road - I was every bit as quick round bends in my old car with stock and uprated anti roll bars.
Power first, and make your mind up what you need at that point, but be aware that things can break with standard parts fitted with big power.
....The fact that "things can break with standard parts fitted with big power", as you said, is exactly why it's not wise to go for big power first.
The point about ARB's is that they increase your car's stability which in turn results in safer braking (less nose dive etc) and improved grip in corners. They make every bit of difference on the road even on a standard car. I'm by no means the only person to know this. It's well established as a good value mod.
Whatever mods are considered, it's a slippery slope!
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For once I completely agree with you RR :P
As I said in a previous post "power is nothing without control". The Mk5/Cupra/Octavia Chassis is not exactly the best out there.
If anything then you should get driving lessons to learn to control a car at speed. This will be by far the best "Handling/Power" mod you can do. At least then you will be able to safely control the power you have available rather than running out of skill with a 350bhp car on 200bhp suspension and brakes and hoping they cope :stupid:
But each to their own opinion.
To the OP - what I would suggest is take everyone's advice with a pinch of salt (mine included). Use it to make an informed decision that ultimately you are happy with. At the end of the day it's your hard earned cash your going to spend, its you that has to drive the car every day so its you that has to be happy with the route you choose. It has to be YOUR decision :happy2:
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^^^^
And I completely agree with you, Carl - Especially about remapping your brain by doing a professional driving course. :drinking:
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My opinion on Anti Roll Bars are the opposite of others - they are the last thing someone should change especially on a road car. They make no difference for use on the road - I was every bit as quick round bends in my old car with stock and uprated anti roll bars.
Sorry but that is a load of Carp in my opinion. I would suggest the problem was in the drivers seat and not the Bars. If they are set up right the they keep the car flatter in corners and depending on which you have set the stiffest will help control the understeer or oversteer.
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....The fact that "things can break with standard parts fitted with big power", as you said, is exactly why it's not wise to go for big power first.
The point about ARB's is that they increase your car's stability which in turn results in safer braking (less nose dive etc) and improved grip in corners. They make every bit of difference on the road even on a standard car. I'm by no means the only person to know this. It's well established as a good value mod.
Whatever mods are considered, it's a slippery slope!
Hence why I mentioned the uprated mounts - they are the main thing needed to stop any breakages. Anti Roll Bars are much less necessary than uprated shocks and springs. Accelarating/Decelarating movements are not affected by Anti Roll Bars by the way - they are designed to stop roll in bends. Also, grip has a lot more to do with tyres than ARB's.
For what its worth, when I fitted the Autotech ARB's to my car, it went against the grain to do so. Steve at Statllers advised against them, and the WALK. I ignored him, but in hindsight, I know he was right now. Waste of cash.
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My opinion on Anti Roll Bars are the opposite of others - they are the last thing someone should change especially on a road car. They make no difference for use on the road - I was every bit as quick round bends in my old car with stock and uprated anti roll bars.
Sorry but that is a load of Carp in my opinion. I would suggest the problem was in the drivers seat and not the Bars. If they are set up right the they keep the car flatter in corners and depending on which you have set the stiffest will help control the understeer or oversteer.
Pretty bold statement from someone who does not know me from the next person lad. Pretty sure if you ask a few people that know me, there is no issue on the drivers seat. I managed to leave some Exiges on a short figure 8 track with nothing other than stage 1 and Eibach pro kit springs on my car ;)
My car was set up with quite a lot of decent stuff and I never hung around. Tyres make a lot more difference to cornering than any anti roll bar ever could. I used Autotech adjustable ARB's by the way and adjusted them in a lot of different ways.
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That was actually a sarcastic comment I made :P. But it's a pretty bold statement to say a proven mod makes no difference with the only evidence being YOUR experience.
I agree that Tyres will make a lot of difference. But so do ARB's to a standard car.
Unless you have been professionally trained to drive quick then you will not be as good as you think. Just because you managed to leave a few Exiges on a short figure 8 track doesn't make you Lewis Hamilton. Maybe the drivers of said cars weren't as adept or confident as you. Track Driving is completely different to fast road driving I used to think I was the bees knees at driving. I then went and did police driver training followed by 4 months of other job specific high speed driver training and I was shocked at just how bad I was and found my perception of my "skill" was over inflated due to modern suspension, ESP, ABS, TCS etc etc.
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So if ARBs dont do anything... what mod would you suggest to reduce understeer and body roll?
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So if ARBs dont do anything... what mod would you suggest to reduce understeer and body roll?
A car with a better chassis to start with - new Megane for example.
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So if ARBs dont do anything... what mod would you suggest to reduce understeer and body roll?
A car with a better chassis to start with - new Megane for example.
in that case i'll stick with the body roll......
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So if ARBs dont do anything... what mod would you suggest to reduce understeer and body roll?
A car with a better chassis to start with - new Megane for example.
in that case i'll stick with the body roll......
:signLOL: :signLOL:
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That was actually a sarcastic comment I made :P. But it's a pretty bold statement to say a proven mod makes no difference with the only evidence being YOUR experience.
I agree that Tyres will make a lot of difference. But so do ARB's to a standard car.
Unless you have been professionally trained to drive quick then you will not be as good as you think. Just because you managed to leave a few Exiges on a short figure 8 track doesn't make you Lewis Hamilton. Maybe the drivers of said cars weren't as adept or confident as you. Track Driving is completely different to fast road driving I used to think I was the bees knees at driving. I then went and did police driver training followed by 4 months of other job specific high speed driver training and I was shocked at just how bad I was and found my perception of my "skill" was over inflated due to modern suspension, ESP, ABS, TCS etc etc.
Not professing to be any kind of professional racing driver (although I do have a wee collection of trophies for karting, one for motorbikes and a couple for car racing as it happens), but my point is that Anti Roll Bars, in my experience, and that of other people I know, is the opposite of what you guys are making them out to be. This particular day had a fair old selection of exotica, and the Lotus were being driven rather quickly as it happens to the point of mixing with track day Evo's/Subaru's with over 400+ bhp and the ability to put down power. The biggest issue I had when I did this was wheelspin which I am sure would have been cured by a LSD and some 888's. Yes, ARB's may have helped, but not to the extent decent springs and shocks would have.
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I'm not making ARB's out to be the definitive Mod as they aren't. However they do help.
I have Koni FSD and Eibach Springs on my vRS. When I first put the Eibach ARB's (I did both F&R at the same time) on my car I noticed a difference. The car was definately flatter in corners, the understeer was less and required less feathering of the throttle to control. I was able to push the car approx 5mph faster in a corner (on roads I know like the back of my hand) with the ARB's fitted before it would start to lose grip. So it's not a massive difference but it does help. I would class it as more of a stability mod really.
But this is just my opinion based on my experience. Just as yours is based on your experience. :drinking:
Merry Xmas :santa: :xmaspresent:
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I'm not making ARB's out to be the definitive Mod as they aren't. However they do help.
Agree with that. Pretty sure when pushing it on a track they are going to help, but in my experience, time and money is better spent on shocks and springs first.
Merry Christmas to you lads too :xmassmiley:
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turning into an interesting discussion now! am taking it all on board and as vrs carl says have to make own decisions. am a little concerned that horace thinks the WALK was a waste of money seeing as having it fitted on fri.... :confused:
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The addition of ARB's and the amount that they will help drasticly depends on the choice of other suspension components. My first suspension kit on the ed30 was an Eibach coilover setup, they were far too soft and needed ARB's to lebel out the body roll, the Bilstein B12 kit that I replaced them with was 10x better and no need for ARB's. In fact it feels better than some mk5's I have driven that have every handling mod possible fitted and its still extremely comfy.
Suspension mods should be well thought out, not all components will work well together, its easy to ruin a cars handling by just bashing on every option available.
If I keep the car, I will be fitting a diff, continuing to fit good tyres and keep trying to work out a way to control the factory traction system manually via some sort of adjustable in-car module....... Still working on that one though!
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and keep trying to work out a way to control the factory traction system manually via some sort of adjustable in-car module....... Still working on that one though!
....Keep us posted on that one! :happy2:
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I've chosen the THS engine mounts over the likes of vwr and BSH, due to our car also has to be used daily as yours. they (THS) are a compromise of the very trackoriented options and the sluggish OEM ones.
have just bought these off h4rdy, seems like a sensible mod to get done now