MK5 Golf GTI
General => Random Chat => Topic started by: QD MBE on April 04, 2011, 07:03:09 pm
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Vehicles with Xenons will be required to have Levelling devices and a washing system by Jan 2012.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technical%20pen%20picture%203%20-%20lighting.pdf (http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technical%20pen%20picture%203%20-%20lighting.pdf)
I know they will also be looking at 'illegal' ECU mods, quite how they will do that is anyone's guess.
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thought they had to anyway
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I retro fitted xenons to my Ed and it passed MOT test without either. It seems they have tightened up on retro fits, or adding HID kits.
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I see it applys to HID and not factory oem xenons. :happy2:
Thankfully :rolleye:
the last paragraph is good reading.The examiners descretion..
remap tracing? How can that be policed?
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Germany is also to look for ECU modifications, but how is anyones guess :confused:
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I see it applys to HID and not factory oem xenons. :happy2:
Thankfully :rolleye:
How on earth can they trace a remap??
They list HID (High Intensity Discharge) as being filled with Xenon gas, so I guess it does apply to OEM xenons. They also refer to HID kits later.
Dazzle can also be caused if the lamps are dirty or aimed too high due to, for example, carrying
rear seat passengers and/or heavy items in the boot. Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore
required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which
may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.
The presence and operation of these headlamp cleaning and levelling devices has been
added to the test. Therefore, if a mandatory headlamp levelling or cleaning device is missing,
inoperative or otherwise obviously defective, the vehicle will fail.
This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID
lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are
widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. The Department for Transport considers
that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied
in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT
test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp
cleaning and self-levelling systems. Some high specification estate cars are fitted with a selflevelling suspension system and this would be considered as adequate for the purpose.
It is also worthy of note that a few high performance vehicles fitted with HID headlamps that
have barely any luggage space and stiff suspension do not require a self-levelling system.
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They will be clamping down on 'additions' such as HID kits and tuning boxes.
Thank god :congrats:
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It doesn't dave, ours are not HID, so it doesn't apply.
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They will be clamping down on 'additions' such as HID kits and tuning boxes.
Thank god :congrats:
That's how I read it aswell
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There's been talk of VOSA's intentions to clamp down on aftermarket HID's for some time.
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What constitutes an "illegal" ecu then?
If its a tuning box or piggy back type thing then there easy to spot..... i think :ashamed: but software remap would be pretty much impossible unless they know every cars original parametres.
Im glad about the stupid HID kits been made an mot fail because there a PITA!
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Sadly, I think you may be wrong Steve.
they give the testers tips on how to recognise them.
HID headlamps can be easily recognised as they generally:
u take a few seconds to reach full intensity
u have a bluish tinge to the light
u have an igniter module/inverter behind the headlamp
u may also have ‘DCR’ marked on the headlamp lens.
HID is a term which covers lots of types. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_discharge_lamp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_discharge_lamp)
Some of which are
Mercury vapor lamps
Metal halide (MH) lamps
Ceramic MH lamps
Sodium vapor lamps
Xenon short-arc lamps
Ultra-High Performance (UHP)
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People with oem xenons have nothing to worry about there self leveling and have headlight washers!
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Is there any provision, or likely to be, for HID's fitted before the new MOT legislation kicks in? If so, I would expect it to have to be backed up with proper paperwork. But...
[Btw, mine are VW OEM Xenons with washers etc etc so I'm not personally worried]
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xenon and HID are two different things to what they are referring .
since when are oem xenon lamps referred to as HID?
at no point does it refer to xenon lamps/retro fits, it's purely aimed at people who have changed their halogen bulbs for HID's.
beam patterns are then incorrect, and hense why VOSA are acting on it.
Either way, a close mate whos a Mot tester has told me the same thing, so for me personally, won't effect my situ.
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xenon and HID are two different things to what they are referring .
since when are oem xenon lamps referred to as HID?
I was thinking that too :laugh:
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xenon and HID are two different things to what they are referring .
since when are oem xenon lamps referred to as HID?
They are technicaly the same lamp steve but like i said you have nothing to be worried about.
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Im glad they are clamping down, nothing worse than a HID bulb in a normal reflector headlight :sick:
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As above, xenons are a type of HID. Anyway, as lon you've got them fitted properly, there's nothing to worry about.
Plus it'll get the chavved up dazzlers off the roads.
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They harp on about HIDs (of which Xenons are a form of) dazzling due to dirt etc on the lamp, or having passengers the car being laden (boot full).
All of the above situations could very well apply to retrofit Xenons?
The downside of this extra brightness is the potential to cause excessive dazzle to oncoming
traffic. To combat this, HID headlamps often have advanced electronics that control the shape
of the headlamp beam to avoid dazzle when the car climbs or descends hills and likewise when
the vehicle is accelerating or braking.
Dazzle can also be caused if the lamps are dirty or aimed too high due to, for example, carrying
rear seat passengers and/or heavy items in the boot. Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore
required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which
may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.
The presence and operation of these headlamp cleaning and levelling devices has been
added to the test. Therefore, if a mandatory headlamp levelling or cleaning device is missing,
inoperative or otherwise obviously defective, the vehicle will fail
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They harp on about HIDs (of which Xenons are a form of) dazzling due to dirt etc on the lamp, or having passengers the car being laden (boot full).
All of the above situations could very well apply to retrofit Xenons?
Since when is a jet of water gonna get a dried flys arse off the lense dave?? :notworthy: Simples it wont :indifferent:.Next your be saying Headlamp wipers will be required to fix that!!
Yes if you carrying a heavy load on board has to be taken into account, but as long as they are set and aimed correctly by an approved MOT centre to take this into account, again its not gonna get failed. :stupid:
Again , your squewing off tangent.
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Im pretty sure that they wont be looking for cars that have been remapped (by remapped I mean they have had their software altered) but for cars that have had something like this fitted:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fhh32%2Farativ%2F07012009094.jpg&hash=e16d4f5bbd67836f6f75b0b8007d7c7e4538f642)
Most are made in china and rebranded for sale under lots of different brand names, all do the same thing i.e fool the ECU to dump excess fuel into the combustion process to gain extra power but are harmfull to engine components and cause extremely high emissions outputs. I witnessed one start to smoulder and almost catch fire during installation on a Mercedes.
As for HID kits (the type found on Ebay) I know of many people that have had them fail and leave them driving at night with no lights on other than sidelights, last thing you want when driving down a country road in the dark!
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early night Steve?
:signLOL:
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early night Steve?
:signLOL:
Ive just eaten Fish supper thanx dave :P
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HID lights are worse when retro fitted into standard lamp units, its not just the dirt that causes dazzle but the type of lens. Most factory fitted xenon lights cause little or no dazzle (except some fiats and more annoyingly those hideous contraptions known as the Nissan
joke Juke) its when a HID bulb is fitted into a standard non-projector headlamp unit you get lots of dazzle as they cant control the spread of light correctly.
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HID(High Intensity Gas Discharge) is the term used for the lamp fitted to what you refer to as Xenons Steve. It's the type of lamp regardless of how it's fitted.
As for how this would affect people in a situation such as yours I wouldn't know however what you have done is only mildly better than fitting an HID kit as you know it but still wouldn't comply with the law IMHO.
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:popcornsoda:
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HID lights are worse when retro fitted into standard lamp units, its not just the dirt that causes dazzle but the type of lens. Most factory fitted xenon lights cause little or no dazzle (except some fiats and more annoyingly those hideous contraptions known as the Nissan joke Juke) its when a HID bulb is fitted into a standard non-projector headlamp unit you get lots of dazzle as they cant control the spread of light correctly.
:happy2:
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Im pretty sure that they wont be looking for cars that have been remapped (by remapped I mean they have had their software altered) but for cars that have had something like this fitted:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fhh32%2Farativ%2F07012009094.jpg&hash=e16d4f5bbd67836f6f75b0b8007d7c7e4538f642)
Clamping down on tuning boxes is rather pointless, seeing how easy they are to remove and refit. The owner would only have to spend a minute or two before and after the MOT and get away scott free!
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I would have to agree that HID also applies to what manufacturers refer as xenon lights, xenon is just the inert gas used they all function in the same way, obviously having xenons with a proper shutter helps to control the light pattern rather than the reflector but doesnt solve the beam pattern when the rear is loaded unless you have somehow enabled the interior adjuster switch to raise and lower the beam pattern. To be honest with you im not convinced that the washers do anything affective, but the level adjuster is a must, but most people dont even use it with halogen lights and blind you so they should really make aut levelling mandatory on new cars in my opinion.
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Just reading this thread and thinking out loudly, I have to ask myself why Steve is so vehmently opposed to the notion that xenon lights don't fall under the HID catagory.
Could it be that from his sig picture, his car doesn't appear to have headlight washers and so won't pass the new MOT?? :popcornsoda:
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That's correct - he had them retrofitted. And will now have to sell his new car to get the system properly retrofitted. Or he'll have to take them off at MOT time.
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My MOT is up before this comes in so its all good for me :signLOL:
Though I am going to save up and fit the washers and the levelling kit
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My MOT is up before this comes in so its all good for me :signLOL:
Though I am going to save up and fit the washers and the levelling kit
Have you looked into the current cost of these since the price increase?
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I would have to agree that HID also applies to what manufacturers refer as xenon lights
Me, too, what with that fact being correct an' all!
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Just reading this thread and thinking out loudly, I have to ask myself why Steve is so vehmently opposed to the notion that xenon lights don't fall under the HID catagory.
Could it be that from his sig picture, his car doesn't appear to have headlight washers and so won't pass the new MOT?? :popcornsoda:
I have nothing to worry out chap.
I have a good friend who's an MOT tester so it will pass :P
My xenons and shutters are great, and shutters work, set on a lower setting.
If you read that last paragraph in the VOSA write up in section 1.7...what does it say about cars with firmer suspension? :P
Advisory can be given... Haha, so no I don't have to sell my new car stealthy :booty:
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barely any luggage space and stiff suspension do not require a self-levelling system
^^^^ Golf has barely any luggage space?
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Still not a failure though dave, an advisory is given......
so explain how my car could fail now when it says this^^
Good to see you quote the stiff suspension bit, The GTI will fall into this too, no levelers are not a requirement .
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My MOT is up before this comes in so its all good for me :signLOL:
Though I am going to save up and fit the washers and the levelling kit
Have you looked into the current cost of these since the price increase?
What price increase are you referring to?
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It is at the discretion of the tester. However, I think the article is fairly self explanatory.
They use sentences such as -
Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.
HID is a term used to describe a group of headlights, Xenons (whether OEM or retrofit - still xenons) are in that group.
Not sure where the get out clause is in the above. But very happy to be proven wrong.
My whole reason for posting this was not to get anyone's back up, but to give information, there are a lot of enquiries on this site about Retrofitting Xenons, and HID Kits.
:happy2:
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Well dont worry about it then ?, get your dodgy mate to pass it for you, i fear others without a dodgy mate wont be so lucky.
Just reading this thread and thinking out loudly, I have to ask myself why Steve is so vehmently opposed to the notion that xenon lights don't fall under the HID catagory.
Could it be that from his sig picture, his car doesn't appear to have headlight washers and so won't pass the new MOT?? :popcornsoda:
I have nothing to worry out chap.
I have a good friend who's an MOT tester so it will pass :P
My xenons and shutters are great, and shutters work, set on a lower setting.
If you read that last paragraph in the VOSA write up in section 1.7...what does it say about cars with firmer suspension? :P
Advisory can be given... Haha, so no I don't have to sell my new car stealthy :booty:
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....... which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.
Interesting point that QD. The last time I did any research on it, a correctly retrofitted OEM Xenon headlamp unit would retain the manual levelling system operation from the headlamp switch. That might just cover it???
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....... which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.
Interesting point that QD. The last time I did any research on it, a correctly retrofitted OEM Xenon headlamp unit would retain the manual levelling system operation from the headlamp switch. That might just cover it???
Steve will just have to get air suspension, then the car will self level.......
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....... which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.
Interesting point that QD. The last time I did any research on it, a correctly retrofitted OEM Xenon headlamp unit would retain the manual levelling system operation from the headlamp switch. That might just cover it???
on the MK4 you could splice into the levelling system, I don't think it is possible on the MK5.
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I did read a guide on it for the MK5, but it was very crude
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Well dont worry about it then ?, get your dodgy mate to pass it for you, i fear others without a dodgy mate wont be so lucky.
Just reading this thread and thinking out loudly, I have to ask myself why Steve is so vehmently opposed to the notion that xenon lights don't fall under the HID catagory.
Could it be that from his sig picture, his car doesn't appear to have headlight washers and so won't pass the new MOT?? :popcornsoda:
I have nothing to worry out chap.
I have a good friend who's an MOT tester so it will pass :P
My xenons and shutters are great, and shutters work, set on a lower setting.
If you read that last paragraph in the VOSA write up in section 1.7...what does it say about cars with firmer suspension? :P
Advisory can be given... Haha, so no I don't have to sell my new car stealthy :booty:
Theres nothing dodgy Shaun, Ive been told by an MOT tester, that what im saying is correct (In my case). QD is saying otherwise, and wording it as if my setup will be included in this brief.
Its open to interpretation and as it clearly states, the examiners descretion should be used. Meaning if its a HID , ie HID bulbs in Halogen units, then these new rules WILL apply.
It says clearly, that if the car has firm or sporty suspention, that levelers are not a requirement. It also saying if washers are missing and levelers are not present then an advisory may be neccessary..
That in one sentance means it still wont be a failure..
If you dont think this is the case ,then why not call your local MOT centre and ask the question QD for clarification.
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These new rules may be open to some interpretation, but my guess is that if there is any doubt on the tester's part they'll probably have some sort of database to refer to that will have a particular model's factory specifications.
There wouldn't be any point in bringing new rules into effect if the tester can just say "ah well, it's me mate's car so it passes". I reckon anyone without a full factory set-up could be on dodgy ground.
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"Where headlamp and cleaning devices are missing or defective, but there is a doubt as to whether they are required,the benefit of the doubt should be given and an advisory notice issued"
Ok so where does it say, well if its a mates car, gonna let this one pass Simon??. There isnt any dodgy ground there !!! :laugh:
Joking aside though , Im sure an MOT centre will NOT have every single make of car and every single model to tell whether it should be there, or if in fact is an optional extra from the manufacturers.
We know what should be there, but i fancy the chances of the tester knowing the ins and outs of a ducks arse, will make his decision a failure.
It says in black and white as ive posted.
I dont know if many people with MK5's have fitted these HID kits though?? .
Dont think ive seen many peeps post pics of these fitted either in any of the Mk5 forums.
But in the words been used before by the O.P
ETTO :signLOL:
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In all of this, some folks are ignoring what's called "the spirit of the law". If discretion is allowed on the part of the authority's officer (which to some extent it appears to be re MOT), then the tester (whether he personally knows Steve or not) is able to assess Steve's car as being one worthy of failure/advisory/pass as a whole specifically regarding its Xenon/HID installed headlights and any associated fittings. Clearly Steve's Mk5 GTI is not some chavved up boy-racer with dazzling lights - Which is what the new laws are trying to control.
So, unless Steve takes his car for MOT somewhere where the tester is an awkward bad tempered tin god bureaucrat, I reckon he'll pass that aspect.
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This is all getting a bit 'tit for tat'. My purpose was to inform members of what i had read. I think it is fairly black and white.
But very happy to be proven wrong, and I hope I am.
My last on the subject.
:happy2: