MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: robern2 on March 17, 2009, 09:22:16 pm
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Hi,
I'm picking up my edition 30 in 2 weeks and going straight to stage 2 or equivalent - map, fuel pump, milltek turbo back and induction (dbillas or EVOMS),
I'm looking for feedback from people who've gone either the GIAC Hammer map or Revo stage 2+ route.
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no comments ?
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cant really comment as i have neither map, but if i were to own a KO4 id have the hammer map,
theres loads of info on maps in the tech area, :happy2:
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Best person to ask is Jonnyc as he has had both maps (GIAC on his S3 and Revo currently on his ED30). But if you are going for all the above mate I would defo go with the Revo Stage 2+. This map has been specificly designed to run along side the likes of the Autotech pump etc and should see a healthy 350-60bhp with the other mods :happy2:
AFAIK GIAC don't have a map available specifically for the HPFP yet, but for the like of Stage 1 etc it is still seen as being very good software (like Revo)..
Hope that helps mate and enjoy.. :wink:
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I use the GIAC with the HFFP and I chose it at out the box it had the best gains over all the others - 305 with just a panel filter.
you will get loads of revo users on here to comment but they were awfully late out with their stage2
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Revo stage 2 here, will be going for stage 2+ soon once my clutch is sorted. Cant comment on giac as i have had no experience with them, but im extremely happy with the revo performance and customer service so far. The select plus switch has also come in useful when i want to adjust the settings :happy2:
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Giac Pump and Race Maps on my Ed30 314bhp on Pump and 321bhp on Race and that's with the Carbonio intake,Miltek Catback,S3 Cooler :happy2: Not missed a beat using Giac Highly recommend it :driver:
Toast
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I can't comment on the GIAC map itself but as Regal are the nearest GIAC agents to me, I personally wouldn't recommend it. Customer service and aftersales support is very important and Revo are excellent.
Just my opinion.
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Does anyone have the 310 or 330 Hammer Maps, possibly a fairer comparison to the latest Revo Stage2+ offering.
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Does anyone have the 310 or 330 Hammer Maps, possibly a fairer comparison to the latest Revo Stage2+ offering.
A few of the S3 lads run the hammer map, although they are happy with them, they haven't made the claimed 330bhp as far as I know
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As Gaz says, the 'Hammer' map seems to be putting out around the 310bhp mark which is about as good as you will get for Stage 1 on a ED30 anyway, whether it be GIAC or Revo. If you want to go for more power then that is where the Milltek TBE, EVOMS and pump etc come in. With GIAC and the following mods, the best I have seen/heard of for GIAC is around the 330bhp mark. Where as with the Stage 2+ available from Revo there are already quite a few Ed30/Cupra/S3's running 350-60bhp as the map has been developed to work along side the HPFP and get the best gains.
All depends on whether you want power figures or how you want the power delivered etc. But as RR has said, the customer service from Revo is excellent and with the Select + switch allows you to fine tune you settings to give the option of how you want you power delivered etc.. :wink:
I don't think you will go wrong with either map mate to be honest. As customers from both stables seem to be chuffed to bits with their product and it is also very rare to hear of any problems arrising from either tuner..
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Aren't there 2 hammer maps, 310 and 330 ?
310 from the 330 would be disappointing but It does sound like it may struggle with more hardware specific code from Revo.
Personally I'm not going to fiddle with any setting regardless but would hope to run max reliable power all of the time although I appreciate climatic diferences ultimately affect the power delivered.
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^^^^
I don't fiddle with my Revo settings myself but there have been occasions where it has been invaluable in looking after (turbo boost leak) and fine tuning as a result of dyno plots etc.
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Red Robin, do you have concerns about previous experiences with Regal, PM/email your thoughts.
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Aren't there 2 hammer maps, 310 and 330 ?
310 from the 330 would be disappointing but It does sound like it may struggle with more hardware specific code from Revo.
Personally I'm not going to fiddle with any setting regardless but would hope to run max reliable power all of the time although I appreciate climatic diferences ultimately affect the power delivered.
As Robin says mate, most people never touch the settings. I for one have played about with them a tad, but have run the same settings 99% of the time. But it just gives you the option of being able to adjust if needed (hot days etc).
The 310 GIAC map is the standard Pump map and the 'Hammer' map is meant to be the 330bhp map.
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I've spoken to Star performance (GIAC dealer) who suggest the hammer map was developed in the US rather than UK. They dont sell the hammer map on principle so this possibly widens the performance gap between the base GIAC code compared to Revo stage2+. Revo is starting to look better.
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The Revo stg 2+ is producing some impressive results, very tempted myself, but its probably worth budgeting for a clutch which is whats putting me off at the minute. Unless your DSG of course, again you may have issues with the power and torque available
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Apart from catering for an aftermarket fuel pump, what other differences are there between Revo2 and Revo2+ ?
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robern2 - Is your car Manual or DSG? K03 or K04?
[Sorry if I missed you saying earlier]
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Apart from catering for an aftermarket fuel pump, what other differences are there between Revo2 and Revo2+ ?
I think the high pressure fuel pump is the only hardware difference between revo 2 and 2+ :driver:
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you need a proper intake too, spoke to Carl at Revo about it the other week :happy2:
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Apart from catering for an aftermarket fuel pump, what other differences are there between Revo2 and Revo2+ ?
REVO recommend an intake, HPFP, TBE and intercooler to used with this file.
Stage 2+ has been specifically developed for the HPFP. When you upgrade to this file the remap will request 130 bar fuel rail pressure from the HPFP. The stock HPFP would not be able to meet this hence the need for an aftermarket pump.
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AMD and others have suggested a panel filter is fine with Stage2+ with only a reduction of approx 7-10bhp albeit and a saving of approx £250 or so over fitting Forge,EVOMS,Dbillas.
Red Robin, in answer to your question - the edition 30 has a K04 turbo.
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Your finally getting some dialogue on this one then Nath!
Have emailed my thoughts to you over the last few days, but I think the results from the rolling road day add to an interesting debate.
Jonny on his last S3 was running GIAC, CAI and TBE and regularly saw 345bhp. I think he went for a bespoke map from Regal when he had the HPFP added and I believe he was up to about 360 then (i'm sure it will be in his build thread somewhere!).
The Revo Stage 2+ S3 and VAG-Check Satge 2+ cars ran 324bhp and 330bhp respectively and my GIAC'd car with Panel filter and Milltek donwpipe ran 321bhp.
I think with Revo stage 2+ you're getting a well tried and tested solution.
The GIAC 2+ is less well known and would require a leap of faith.
I'm pretty sure Regal worked with GIAC on refining the maps for euro markets though... so the data has come from UK spec cars :happy2:
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The Revo Stage 2+ S3 and VAG-Check Satge 2+ cars ran 324bhp and 330bhp respectively and my GIAC'd car with Panel filter and Milltek donwpipe ran 321bhp.
I think with Revo stage 2+ you're getting a well tried and tested solution.
The GIAC 2+ is less well known and would require a leap of faith.
I recorded 321bhp on my Ed30 with Revo Stage 2 and that was on JKMs rollers which are known to be conservative compared to some other operators. I would have thought Stage 2+ would give at least 340bhp+
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I've spoken to Star performance (GIAC dealer) who suggest the hammer map was developed in the US rather than UK. They dont sell the hammer map on principle so this possibly widens the performance gap between the base GIAC code compared to Revo stage2+. Revo is starting to look better.
The Giac maps originate from the U.S but are for the U.K market lets get that clear. The Hammer map is used across the globe, when i bought mine I was advised that it may not reach the 330 stated, it got 321bhp my r/r was compared to another car that day done in Greece that did reach 330 mine was put down to the car having only done a few thousand miles compared to the other car.
The GIAC is sold as race & pump there is no stages like what revo offer.
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^^^^^^ Agree Completely with you Keith :happy2:^^^^^^^
When mines was mapped I was told exactly the same from Jim!
Toast
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GIAC have just launched a stage 2+ map that accomodates the HPFP :happy2:
I agree on the pump and race options.
Though I only have pump on mine.... wonder if I have the option to get more....
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GIAC have just launched a stage 2+ map that accomodates the HPFP :happy2:
I agree on the pump and race options.
Though I only have pump on mine.... wonder if I have the option to get more....
Yes you can have extra programs added to the flashloader.
Do you have a link to the stage 2+ upgrade?
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I think info is scarce on it right now... Nath, the original poster made me aware of it if I'm honest, ut when I was chatting with the guys at Regal on saturday they confimed it exists.
I believe his would be the first with it on in the uk, however i think he's elected to go Revo.
So, the difference between Pump and Race..... given my light mod's (BMC and Milltek Downpipe and the standard back box) what benefit would I see?
As i only have pump and standard visible on my flashloader, do I actually have the 310 map, not the hammer?
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I spoke to star about updates last month and they said nothing new on the horizon, but a call to regal tomorrow to find more info maybe called for.
can i ask why you only have the downpipe fitted, most folks go for just the rear I am sure your the 1st i have heard to do the opposite.this zorst business confuses me hence i ahve never bought one..... that and the prices :laugh:
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I've consulted JonnyC about most mod's on my car (from when he had his S3) and what he doesn't know about the 2.0TFSI now after all the work his done across three cars, well frankly, isn't worth knowing.
I've spoken to him about exhausts and yeah, of course a full system will give you the best results, but I need may car to appear relatively stock for when i'm visiting clients... plus the boss (AKA my girlfriend) would have a word with me about something like an aftermarket exhaust.
Anyway, with the new facelifted S3, lot's of people have had issues with misfires after having remaps done... nothing new, as a lot of people suffered injector issue related misfires, but on the facelifts the injectors were not the cause. The downpipe is slightly different on the facelift S3's and this was the cause. Basically, it is the most restrictive part of the whole OEM system on all 2.0TFSI cars (when you see it next to the Milltek you can really see the difference), and the OEM backbox is pretty free breathing anyway.
So, I put just the Milltek downpipe on as a bit of a test to see if for 40% of the cost, you can get 70% of the performance gain and you guessed it, Jonny was bang on the money I've seen an increase in headline figures of 7bhp and 6lb/ft, but that is only part of the story.
Here is a comparison from when my car was just a map and panel filter and then adding the down pipe:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjamiekip%2FRegal_RR_Day%2FRegalDynoComparison.jpg&hash=f010e0385b1056f599ccd23abbd3a5092a918d8d)
You can see low end torque is much improved, and power is pretty much improved all through the rev range.
You can definately feel the difference, plus the exhaust note is improved. :happy2:
I'd recommend this as a cheaper alternative to a full system and it will deffo yield more performance gain than just the back box.
J
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top write up Jamie, this was a route I was thinking of taking as well but then E-bay through up a cat-back I couldn't resist :smiley:
without being picky though, it wasn't the facelifted cars that started with the downpipe issue on the S3's, it was the 08 pre-facelift where something changed and the issues started as far as I know, I had the issues and they all dissapeared wehn I put the downpipe on :happy2:
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Thanks Jamie power graphs before and after :happy2:. some folks said that the stock downpipe was ok and not as restrictive as the prev mk4 version so thats something for me to think about once the modding moderator lifts my ban.
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nice data Jamie thanks :happy2: never even considered the downpipe only ......
In terms of fitment , is it easy from downpipe end to start of OE system? i.e
Is there an adapter of some sort for bolt to clamp conversion + reducing the internal diam to OE size ?
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:signLOL: no test is complete with some stats to support it!
@ Gaz - not picky, and yeah you're comepltely right, I remember someone mentioning that 08 cars had the same issue (may even have been you :P )
@ Keith - when you see the two side by side the OEM downpipe is very restrictive - narrowest part of the whole OEM system
@ John O - Fitment in my case was a bit of a mare, as I bought the downpipe of a mate who went big turbo and had a custom downpipe developed. As a result, Regal had to construct a custom centre section to marry the OEM rear section and down pipe. It's only straight pipe, so didn't take long, but added a little to the labour cost of fitting.
You can get a Downpipe with sports cat and a centre section from Milltek I believe that makes it easy. Any decent mod shop should have the adaptors that allow them to reduce and mate the milltek to the OEM back box, however, on the S3 at least the OEM back box is pretty wide anyway - just be sure to mention it when booking in I guess.
:happy2:
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Regal had to construct a custom centre section to marry the OEM rear section and down pipe. It's only straight pipe, so didn't take long, but added a little to the labour cost of fitting.
You can get a Downpipe with sports cat and a centre section from Milltek I believe that makes it easy. Any decent mod shop should have the adaptors that allow them to reduce and mate the milltek to the OEM back box, however, on the S3 at least the OEM back box is pretty wide anyway - just be sure to mention it when booking in I guess.
....I'm wondering if, when you mate the stock centre pipe (leading to stock back box) to the Milltek downpipe, don't you interfere with the Milltek's overall system design by reducing the pipe diameter? I hasten to add that I don't know the answer to this but I'll probably ask Mr Milly when we next speak.
Does the stock S3 have a centre box (equivalent to Milltek's Resonated system) or have you done away with that and so have your own 'Non-Resonated' system. The exhaust music will be more audible in the cabin without the centre box - Hasn't the GF noticed?
Your car sounded good when I very briefly heard it at Bolney Stage though I think that a full Milltek system would sound stronger.
I would also regularly check your cat to make sure it's not rattling as a sign of too much heat and melting. Without the full system I would expect your Milltek warranty to be fooked.
It all sounds rather BIALI, which is very commendable, but as I understand things there is more to the design of a performance exhaust system than just mixing pipework.
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Pay attention at the back Robin :rolleye:
I have a custom centre section.
The stock items and Milltek items are not designed to the same sizes, therefore I have a Milltek Downpipe and sports Cat, a custom centre section and the OEM rear incuding the silencers.
In terms of pipe diameter, the reduction from the centre section to the OEM back box, looked to be relatively small - the restriction in the OEM system is definately in the downpipe and to a lesser degree the centre section, not the backbox.
So, yeah, noise is a bit louder, but not massively so, and only under full load and aobe 2750k rpm when the valve in the zorst is triggered.
You're right, there is more to the design of the pipe work than just bolting things together and I will be keeping an eye on it. It may apear a bit Biali :scared: but I had lot's of chats with JonnyC and Regal and there is no issue. In fact, some people tune their exhaust to develop specifc charecteristics in their engine, for example, I'm told that a wider down pipe and front section leading to a narrower back box system helps improve mid range torque (I hear a lot of Evo owners do this), where is widening the system from start through to exit helps drive bigger power. :happy2:
As said in my earlier post, I don't want a full system on my car, I dont like the tips Milltek do for the S3 (though I hear new ones are in development!) plus the Boss (girlfriend) would have something to say! :happy2:
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thanks jamie :happy2:
I can definitely see the benefits of a system that doesnt shout its been modified (Boss / dealer etc ...)
but sounds :laugh:
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I can definitely see the benefits of a system that doesnt shout its been modified (Boss / dealer etc ...)
....Any good dealer is going to spot the downpipe immediately when they service or workshop the car. Why on earth would you want to hide it from a dealer anyway?
As for people (not picking on you, Jamie) hiding their car mods from their wives/GF's....... What kind of relationship is that? - Get yourself a separate account, don't do only a joint account (you could regret it one day because you never know what's around the corner).
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of course they are robin :laugh: dont take it so seriously :grouphug:
but to casual man on the street , thief etc it looks std and doesnt shout 'Im fast nick me to find out'
you could theorise ,when going into VW to make a warranty claim for wheels etc , you may not get an immediate 'its modded bugger off' reply. not all dealers are mod friendly, ok its a small point but can help.
and of course some people absolutely must have the OE look (but better perf) no matter what.
As for GF/wife , im not about to tell jamie how to do things.
We all do things differently (for the record my wife knows all my spends :happy2:)
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^^^^
No, I'm not telling Jamie or anyone what to do - I'm just expressing my opinion about what I think is best to do.
:happy2: 8) :happy2:
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and we love ya for it come ere :grouphug: :smiley:
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and we love ya for it come ere :grouphug: :smiley:
....But no tongues!!
:drinking: :smiley:
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Ahh, Robin getting some love :love: :signLOL:
Not a case of hiding stuff from my girlfriend though Robin mate, she's pretty chilled out about cars to be honest, but she doesn't approve of the 'look at me' nature of some mod's and I like a peaceful life...
Besides, I talked myself out of a full exhaust some time ago as I simply didn't like the tips available for the S3.
Either way, I'm happy with what this little mod has delivered.
You should have a drive at the next Biali meet Robin. :drinking:
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You should have a drive at the next Biali meet Robin. :drinking:
....Ooooh, yesh pleeeease! And you, mine :smiley:
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I had a similar set up on my mkIV gti. but current quality issues stop me from buying milltek. Eventually though i will get a zorst.
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I had a similar set up on my mkIV gti. but current quality issues stop me from buying milltek. Eventually though i will get a zorst.
....Are you saying that you think these quality issues are throughout their products and furthermore, whatever their extent, have not been rectified?
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I had a similar set up on my mkIV gti. but current quality issues stop me from buying milltek. Eventually though i will get a zorst.
I'm hearing this more and more at the moment, which is a shame
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^^^^
So someone please tell me what are the issues? [I have a lot of contact with Milltek and may be able to help all concerned]
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Well I keep hearing (and seeing) examples that have tarnished pretty badly - which maybe down to a bad batch, I dunno.
Not a problem on everything back to the exhaust tips (though not ideal), but when they go too it doesn't look good.
Like I say, maybe an unfortunate batch
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there's a post here or on golfgti that shows the pipes that were delivered were to big i.e. stick out to much from the bumper.
There's another forum member here who has had his downpipe changed 3 times as the mounts keep breaking. I dont like to dis them but since i first raised this issue nothing seems to have changed.
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^^^^
Thanks for this info, Jamie and Keith - I will discuss it with Mr Milly himself. I'm not an employee of Milltek but I do test some of their products from time to time and am in continual contact with them.
Regarding the broken downpipe mounts, this happened to me too and Milltek now include a poly torque arm insert to reduce stresses and they have also more recently revised the mounts so they are 'telescopic'. I'm away at the airport most of tomorrow but will get back to you hopefully in the next few days - Better if I start a new thread and ask the Mods to transfer some of the posts from here as appropriate.
One thing I can assure you is that Milltek care very deeply about the standard of their products and also do their utmost to deliver the best customer care they can. Their products are continually being improved and they do not sit on their laurels.
:drinking:
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good to hear Robin.
back on thread for the GIAC :happy2:
I spoke with Regal today when ordering a heatshield and they advise that the GIAC upgrade to accomodate the HFFP is inuse Stateside but they are awaiting the U.K version to arrive soon. :drinking: on its arrival
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Look forward to hearing about this one Keith..... about time GIAC got there stage 2+ software out!
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Yup the software is here. lm getting mine flashed at the same time l get my milly tbe fitted around the 25th of Sep. So lets see if l get a bit more than 321bhp and 329ftlbs.
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I'm going to get the Miltek downpipe put on tomorrow along with the fuel pump so I will ask Star my local Giac dealer about this map upgrade :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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I'm going to get the Miltek downpipe put on tomorrow along with the fuel pump so I will ask Star my local Giac dealer about this map upgrade :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
They happen to be mine as well. But as lm not home until next Wednesday and Jims away on holiday for 2 weeks on the 10th l will have to wait and get my S3 done when hes back
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No the Downpipe is my own mate bought it from Jonny c on here and asked jim to fit it for me :happy2: He did say there was a system instock but it was marked for a customers s3 (yourS I pressume) Never said who's the fuel pump was when I phoned he just said there was 1 instock so I bought it :smiley:
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Yeah that would be mine, and lve got a deposit on it so he better not try selling in before hand cause :fighting:
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Don't think Jim would try that he's a good guy :happy2: done all my upgrades along with some of my mates cars and can't fault him!!
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Blade on scn is already running stage 2+ giac software. His car seems to always dyno slightly higher than revo stage 2+ on the same days/rollers.
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Blade on scn is already running stage 2+ giac software. His car seems to always dyno slightly higher than revo stage 2+ on the same days/rollers.
Was very impressed with blades car and the software. he made a healthy 30bhp over me although i dont have an intake yet and mine was running rather rich. Carnt fault revo stage 2+ either
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Blade on scn is already running stage 2+ giac software. His car seems to always dyno slightly higher than revo stage 2+ on the same days/rollers.
Was very impressed with blades car and the software. he made a healthy 30bhp over me although i dont have an intake yet and mine was running rather rich. Carnt fault revo stage 2+ either
The way I see it when it comes to choosing between revo and giac is that you should go to whichever has a reputable dealer closest to you.
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im pretty close to both although id herd alot about revo so went with them, had i known then what i know now i may well have gone with gaic.
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Wouldnt think about it too much. Theres nothing between blades car and a revo stage 2+ on the road apparently.
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Blade on scn is already running stage 2+ giac software. His car seems to always dyno slightly higher than revo stage 2+ on the same days/rollers.
Are you sure about that? :confused:
Mine made 16hp and 35ft/lbs more than Blades car about 5mins after his ran..
On the road there was a HUGE difference between them in performance..
Its been proven over and over that Revo cars are faster than the competition..
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Wouldnt think about it too much. Theres nothing between blades car and a revo stage 2+ on the road apparently.
Again.. BS lol.. :happy2:
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Wouldnt think about it too much. Theres nothing between blades car and a revo stage 2+ on the road apparently.
Again.. BS lol.. :happy2:
Why? Because your car was on a diet and has DSG whilst his hasnt? Hardly fair, DSG itself makes a huge difference.
Im only going by what I have been told by the guys over on scn, but most recently on the group dyno runs, blades car has been doing better figures than the other revo stage 2 plus cars.
Ive then been told by another guy who runs revo stage 2 plus that on the road there was nothing between his car and blades.
BTW I thought the best your car pulled on a dyno has been around 350hp, Hardly boundry pushing figures compared to some other revo and GIAC mapped stage 2+ cars, and also lower than blades best efforts, granted there is the whole dyno lottery
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Wouldnt think about it too much. Theres nothing between blades car and a revo stage 2+ on the road apparently.
Again.. BS lol.. :happy2:
Why? Because your car was on a diet and has DSG whilst his hasnt? Hardly fair, DSG itself makes a huge difference.
Agree that comparing it with Jonny's car isn't really a fair comparison due to weight loss and DSG.
BTW I thought the best your car pulled on a dyno has been around 350hp, Hardly boundry pushing figures compared to some other revo and GIAC mapped stage 2+ cars, and also lower than blades best efforts, granted there is the whole dyno lottery
JC's car ran 350bhp on the same rollers on the same day as Blade's car and made better figures, so you aint going to get a better comparison than that really mate. Comparing Blade's best RR result done on a seperate day against the one run Jonny has done isn't really ideal, as cars with lower spec to Jonny's have made better figures on different rollers when his wasn't able to attend. THAT is dyno lottery my friend :wink:
Something else to take into account is that a lot of cars with identical mods will vary on the rollers due to simply how they have been driven and run in etc. If you have one car that has a very carefull owner who rarely boots it, or takes it above 4-5krpm, go up against a car that gets a good thrashing on a regular basis, then they can vary not only in RR figures but on the road too. As the car that has regular amounts of right foot (so long as it's warmed up properly etc) will always perform better from what I have found.
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Wouldnt think about it too much. Theres nothing between blades car and a revo stage 2+ on the road apparently.
Again.. BS lol.. :happy2:
Why? Because your car was on a diet and has DSG whilst his hasnt? Hardly fair, DSG itself makes a huge difference.
Im only going by what I have been told by the guys over on scn, but most recently on the group dyno runs, blades car has been doing better figures than the other revo stage 2 plus cars.
Ive then been told by another guy who runs revo stage 2 plus that on the road there was nothing between his car and blades.
BTW I thought the best your car pulled on a dyno has been around 350hp, Hardly boundry pushing figures compared to some other revo and GIAC mapped stage 2+ cars, and also lower than blades best efforts, granted there is the whole dyno lottery
Mine was on the same group dyno run day as Blades Cupra. On the same day, same rollers the Revo Stage 2+ makes more power, quoting figures from an inaccurate dyno and comparing to mine is pointless..
I think you'll find that 350hp is a more accurate figure of power, guys who go around believing that they have upwards of 380hp on a K04 turbo need there heads looking at..
350hp and 380tq was on a Dyno Dynamics rollers, Blades car made about 40hp less on the DD rollers than it did at Motorscope.. And he had modified the car further between times.. What does that tell you?
Anyways Im really not bothered if the Golf 'only' has 350hp, as I have said before, cars with over 100hp more dont get anywhere near it when actually side-by-side.. Which for me is the important thing.. Numbers are good for back to back testing and on the day comparisons and thats about it.. Comparing different dyno numbers taken from different cars on different days is pretty silly
Stage 2+ Revo runs more boost and more aggressive knock control than GIAC, thats where the performance difference comes from..
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Why? Because your car was on a diet and has DSG whilst his hasnt? Hardly fair, DSG itself makes a huge difference.
BTW I thought the best your car pulled on a dyno has been around 350hp, Hardly boundry pushing figures compared to some other revo and GIAC mapped stage 2+ cars, and also lower than blades best efforts, granted there is the whole dyno lottery
[/quote]
So now Jonny's cheating because his car was lightened and had DSG!? Its all down to the drivers preferences and whether they can live with having a 'stripped out' car, obviously Jonny can. I think his 1/4 times and terminal speeds (12.601secs / 115.85mph) speak for themself..
Sonley
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JC's car ran 350bhp on the same rollers on the same day as Blade's car and made better figures, so you aint going to get a better comparison than that really mate. Comparing Blade's best RR result done on a seperate day against the one run Jonny has done isn't really ideal, as cars with lower spec to Jonny's have made better figures on different rollers when his wasn't able to attend. THAT is dyno lottery my friend
Fully aware of this HOWEVER if a car isnt strapped into a dyno properly it wont give proper readings anyway. Not knowing where the dyno session took place or how skilled the dyno operators are, but a poor dyno operator can lead to giving out mis leading figures. Plus iirc havent dsgs got to be dynoed slightly differently to normal manuals to get precise figures?
Something else to take into account is that a lot of cars with identical mods will vary on the rollers due to simply how they have been driven and run in etc. If you have one car that has a very carefull owner who rarely boots it, or takes it above 4-5krpm, go up against a car that gets a good thrashing on a regular basis, then they can vary not only in RR figures but on the road too. As the car that has regular amounts of right foot (so long as it's warmed up properly etc) will always perform better from what I have found.
I can agree witht his but couldnt see the difference being over 10hp.
I think you'll find that 350hp is a more accurate figure of power, guys who go around believing that they have upwards of 380hp on a K04 turbo need there heads looking at..
Arguable, run aggressive enough settings purely for a headline hp figure and you can get 380hp on a k04. In greece there are two cars who have dynoed over 400. But then again we have the whole dyno discrepencies issues.
Stage 2+ Revo runs more boost and more aggressive knock control than GIAC, thats where the performance difference comes from..
How do you know what settings GIAC runs at? Blades car has a custom GIAC map.
Anyways Im really not bothered if the Golf 'only' has 350hp, as I have said before, cars with over 100hp more dont get anywhere near it when actually side-by-side.. Which for me is the important thing../quote]
A Lightned Supercharged type-r driver could say the same to you.
So now Jonny's cheating because his car was lightened and had DSG!? Its all down to the drivers preferences and whether they can live with having a 'stripped out' car, obviously Jonny can. I think his 1/4 times and terminal speeds (12.601secs / 115.85mph) speak for themself..
Sonley
Who said anything about cheating. His car being lightned and having DSG is completely irrelevant to our discussion of comparing GIAC maps to revo maps. This is purely about driveability and power levels, not " my car is lightned and run DSG though so I piss all over a certain GIAC cupra".
It might be worth noting im a Revo boy.
If I happened to live closer to regal instead of AMD essex I would be running GIAC software.
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Lol, I have had a Supercharged Civic type R and its no where near as quick as the Golf.. Look at the 1/4 times.. There running mid 13's with road tyres..
This is turning into a my cars faster than yours type of argument, im not interested thanks..
Plus its not even your car that your talking about lol.. :grin:
Just let me know when anyone with a GIAC K04 Cupra runs faster than me.. :happy2:
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This is turning into a my cars faster than yours type of argument, im not interested thanks..
Which, iirc you turned it into. The discussion was all about giav vs revo, till you mentioned your car vs giac powered ones.
Plus its not even your car that your talking about lol.. :grin:
Just let me know when anyone with a GIAC K04 Cupra runs faster than me.. :happy2:
Never gonna happen till DSG is available in a cupra and you know that :happy2:
Lol, I have had a Supercharged Civic type R and its no where near as quick as the Golf.. Look at the 1/4 times.. There running mid 13's with road tyres.
You still have the ed30? There are some charged type-r's round here who will show you whats what. They are much lighter than even your golf.
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Lol, I have had a Supercharged Civic type R and its no where near as quick as the Golf.. Look at the 1/4 times.. There running mid 13's with road tyres..
This is turning into a my cars faster than yours type of argument, im not interested thanks..
Plus its not even your car that your talking about lol.. :grin:
Just let me know when anyone with a GIAC K04 Cupra runs faster than me.. :happy2:
case closed then coz thats not likely to happen any time soon.
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This is turning into a my cars faster than yours type of argument, im not interested thanks..
Which, iirc you turned it into. The discussion was all about giav vs revo, till you mentioned your car vs giac powered ones.
Plus its not even your car that your talking about lol.. :grin:
Just let me know when anyone with a GIAC K04 Cupra runs faster than me.. :happy2:
Never gonna happen till DSG is available in a cupra and you know that :happy2:
You mentioned Blades Giac Stage 2+ car, Mine is Revo Stage 2+, why is that not relevant?
If you can drive then there is minimal difference between Manual and DSG.. DSG is 30KG heavier than manual and has around 5% more transmission loss..
Anyways lets agree to disagree on this one :smiley:
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I think thats probably the best thing to do lol.
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Not posted on here yet although i know why my ear has been burning recently :laugh:
Nice to see my car has caused some healthy debate. Jonny,s appraoch to performance enhancement via weight saving is the way to go - unfortunately being a married man, the wife would eventually notice the rear seats missing so i,m not going to get a faster car that way :signLOL:
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Not posted on here yet although i know why my ear has been burning recently :laugh:
Nice to see my car has caused some healthy debate. Jonny,s appraoch to performance enhancement via weight saving is the way to go - unfortunately being a married man, the wife would eventually notice the rear seats missing so i,m not going to get a faster car that way :signLOL:
Haha, good to see you on here Ryan..
Ahh I dont wana hear it, get those seats out!! :wink:
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Your approach has really given excellent results. Is the S3 going to be treated to a diet, or are you going to indulge yourself with some luxuries. With the power its going to make i think you should be made to tow a Smart car behind it :jumping:
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Your approach has really given excellent results. Is the S3 going to be treated to a diet, or are you going to indulge yourself with some luxuries. With the power its going to make i think you should be made to tow a Smart car behind it :jumping:
Na, its going to be superlight weight eventually.. The aim is sub 1200kg.. (less than the Golf was)
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Well, the TBE is on and the new map is in also. Having some teething problems which are DV/Boost related l think. But the figures are 335bhp and 363ft-lbs.
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where was this done dc?
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Star
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So do you now have the Pump,Race maps along with this new Extreme map?! :confused: Jim said he was going to be doing yours when I was up last Sat!
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No the Pump has been replaced by the Extreme. So Now Stock, Ex then Race.
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You still have the ed30? There are some charged type-r's round here who will show you whats what. They are much lighter than even your golf.
On road tyres?? What times have they ran.. I saw a mid 12 run at Pod but that was stripped bare and on huge drag slicks and skinny rears.. Hardly a daily driver..
Im just talking from experience as I have owned both.. Sorry.. I would have thought that gave me enough info to comment? Presume you have too?
Lol, I have had a Supercharged Civic type R and its no where near as quick as the Golf.. Look at the 1/4 times.. There running mid 13's with road tyres..
This is turning into a my cars faster than yours type of argument, im not interested thanks..
Plus its not even your car that your talking about lol.. :grin:
Just let me know when anyone with a GIAC K04 Cupra runs faster than me.. :happy2:
case closed then coz thats not likely to happen any time soon.
Which is exactly proves my point dont you think??
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You still have the ed30? There are some charged type-r's round here who will show you whats what. They are much lighter than even your golf.
On road tyres?? What times have they ran.. I saw a mid 12 run at Pod but that was stripped bare and on huge drag slicks and skinny rears.. Hardly a daily driver..
Im just talking from experience as I have owned both.. Sorry.. I would have thought that gave me enough info to comment? Presume you have too?
Lol, I have had a Supercharged Civic type R and its no where near as quick as the Golf.. Look at the 1/4 times.. There running mid 13's with road tyres..
This is turning into a my cars faster than yours type of argument, im not interested thanks..
Plus its not even your car that your talking about lol.. :grin:
Just let me know when anyone with a GIAC K04 Cupra runs faster than me.. :happy2:
case closed then coz thats not likely to happen any time soon.
Which is exactly proves my point dont you think??
Thought we agreed to disagree. :grin:
Hows the S3 going. If you ever bored and need a challenge give me a shout
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Thought we agreed to disagree. :grin:
Hows the S3 going. If you ever bored and need a challenge give me a shout
Oh yeah, lol.. Sorry :wink:
Just about to post up something that a lot have people (no one more than me) have been waiting for!! :happy2:
Challenge?? :P
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No the Pump has been replaced by the Extreme. So Now Stock, Ex then Race.
what figures are you getting for your Extreme map?
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^^^^^
Well, the TBE is on and the new map is in also. Having some teething problems which are DV/Boost related l think. But the figures are 335bhp and 363ft-lbs.
I just re-read this. :wink:
what were you expecting from the extreme map as your running slighlty higher figures than the elusive hammer map.
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Oh thats a good question. If l remember the holy figures that where banded about where 370-385, but that was way back.
The S3 one has a 404 the other one is http://www.giacusa.com/images/dynoplots/CupraR20TFSI_GIAC_program_exhaust.jpg
similar but the curve lve got is (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi168.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu174%2Fdc240969%2Fmap.jpg&hash=cd5d9b803dbc2d9f39921a3835bf24f7e1e73d7a)
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When my car was on the r/r @ star the road had problems with my car or vice-versa as it kept jumping on the rollers it would then knock 10bhp of the final figure to correct itself, I think Toast had the same last week.
I did here form Regal(i think) that the S3 should get 365 with the appropriate mods and the uprated extreme/hammer mapping.
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Thats a reason lm thinking of ditching GIAC and going REVO
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When my car was on the r/r @ star the road had problems with my car or vice-versa as it kept jumping on the rollers it would then knock 10bhp of the final figure to correct itself, I think Toast had the same last week.
I did here form Regal(i think) that the S3 should get 365 with the appropriate mods and the uprated extreme/hammer mapping.
Blades car has done the same. Those giac dyno plots look very different to revo ones unless im mistaking something.
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l think its all to do with the graph scale, heres one from another rr (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi168.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu174%2Fdc240969%2F300309.jpg&hash=ee9ef5d17d43ef535a9195fa6ba803e56cb5514a) done before the remap and tbe
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Here,s one of mine using the same Dyno set up
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi150.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs81%2Favinit%2FMotoscopemap22ndAug09.jpg&hash=64b62ec6ac76a2b71ae0b5c1dd400ac48e899fee)
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Hi Blade, what software you running.
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GIAC software, with dbilas, HPFP and TBE. Still on standard intercooler. :wink:
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Strange indeed, same as mine, mind you lve got my heat shield off but that wont make much difference. Did someone say dyno lottery? That plot looks similar too the dastek one l had done. Much nicer than the ones l get from Star. l contacted the rr that has the dastek , they want £80 a run. l wanted to have each map run and print out taken.
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robern2 - can,t reply to pm,s yet as i have n,t got enough posts. Just email me bud - stealthman05@yahoo.co.uk
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GIAC software, with dbilas, HPFP and TBE. Still on standard intercooler. :wink:
I just need the TBE then I am going to give the revised map a chance
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GIAC software, with dbilas, HPFP and TBE. Still on standard intercooler. :wink:
I just need the TBE then I am going to give the revised map a chance
To make full use of the hpfp you need a TBE due to the egt.
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I know, i just haven't decided on a manu for the exhaust.
i was going to just buy the milltek downpipe and fit that to the oem rear box would that be ok or do i need to get the rear box to as finances aren't fluid at the moment :wink:
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I know, i just haven't decided on a manu for the exhaust.
i was going to just buy the milltek downpipe and fit that to the oem rear box would that be ok or do i need to get the rear box to as finances aren't fluid at the moment :wink:
Know what you mean mate, the milly aint cheap. From what I have been told is that you cant mate a milly downpipe to the standard back box for some reason.
However me and my mate are working on a solution, dont fancy paying a grand for the milly, and tbh I dont really want a milly as everyone has one and I find that boring. What mine sounding more unique.
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1 of the lads with an S3 has done this, Milltek downpipe standard rear section :happy2:
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EGT, now that rings a bell. l was talking with my brother and told him the probs l was seeing and he mentioned this. Anyone care to elaborate?
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Exhaust gas temperature, as it says really. I think there were some worries if a free flowing exhaust system wasn't used the EGT's would be too high.
There is also a a guy with an S3 running the stg2+ Revo code with a HPFP, butstd downpipe, exhaust and intake with no issues. The chances are he wouldn't be able to run as aggressive settings as someone who has the hardware but apparantly the car runs fine
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Exhaust gas temperature, as it says really. I think there were some worries if a free flowing exhaust system wasn't used the EGT's would be too high.
There is also a a guy with an S3 running the stg2+ Revo code with a HPFP, butstd downpipe, exhaust and intake with no issues. The chances are he wouldn't be able to run as aggressive settings as someone who has the hardware but apparantly the car runs fine
To utilise the hpfp stage 2 plus is reqd, but as said the settings will be low across the board due to the standard exhaust system. Although iirc a GIAC powered car was running stage 2 plus with a std ehaust and that also ran fine, but wasnt running consevative settings. That car fried the cat in no time.
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That car fried the cat in no time, worrying stuff that. As l might be the first S3 in the UK to get this map l reckon l should be getting some free rr.
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lve had a few engine management light issues this past week and had to take the battery lead you to get rid of it. l had my car at Star, still there, and Jim said he would have prefered to see the car with the light on. He was on holiday and l wasnt happy with the light on. Anyways, l told Jim the story about the light and the car losing power between 2000-3000rpm. He mention coil packs, l said fair enough as they are cheap enough. He plugged in his computer and didnt find anything. He took it for a drive, l sat and waited. He came back and said its showing a fueling error. He says its been noticed on cars in the states but he didnt know what to do about it. l left the car with him. l didnt hear from him the rest of the day, worrying stuff. lve had a look about and cant really see much that covers it specifically.
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lve had a few engine management light issues this past week and had to take the battery lead you to get rid of it. l had my car at Star, still there, and Jim said he would have prefered to see the car with the light on. He was on holiday and l wasnt happy with the light on. Anyways, l told Jim the story about the light and the car losing power between 2000-3000rpm. He mention coil packs, l said fair enough as they are cheap enough. He plugged in his computer and didnt find anything. He took it for a drive, l sat and waited. He came back and said its showing a fueling error. He says its been noticed on cars in the states but he didnt know what to do about it. l left the car with him. l didnt hear from him the rest of the day, worrying stuff. lve had a look about and cant really see much that covers it specifically.
What sort of fuelling error? Got a more specific code?
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never gave me a code just said fueling lean off throttle
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Didnt hear anything from Star this morning and had to take the girl to Stirling Uni. On the way back l popped in. Jim says' l didnt think you wanted the car back!' , l told him what l had been up to. ' So, l said, whats up' Long story short. The extreme map basically put everything out of kilter, so to speak. Its gone and the 'Star' Hammer map is back on. The car feels fine now, better l feel, in the short play lve had in it. One thing that was missing when using all 3 maps was the snort and chortle of the Forge CAI. The pop from the exhaust during gear change has gone as well. Jim says the Extreme map fueling isnt right. So job done. l can breath easier now, feel like a weights been lifted.
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Didnt hear anything from Star this morning and had to take the girl to Stirling Uni. On the way back l popped in. Jim says' l didnt think you wanted the car back!' , l told him what l had been up to. ' So, l said, whats up' Long story short. The extreme map basically put everything out of kilter, so to speak. Its gone and the 'Star' Hammer map is back on. The car feels fine now, better l feel, in the short play lve had in it. One thing that was missing when using all 3 maps was the snort and chortle of the Forge CAI. The pop from the exhaust during gear change has gone as well. Jim says the Extreme map fueling isnt right. So job done. l can breath easier now, feel like a weights been lifted.
Good news!
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Just out of interest. Any of you boys running stage 2/+ Revo are invited to have a free Rolling Road spin at Star.
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This would be interesting to see what actual power figures come from revo 2+ :popcornsoda:
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Its up in Fife Scotland Dom :happy2: Good guy jim very helpful :drinking:
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Lol, my free run at STAR would cost be a lot in petrol from Hampshire. :signLOL:
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Just noticed on Regal's site, the 'race' map specifically states you have to run the car on 105+ octane which may or may not explain DCs' issues. (Cant see this being a usuable upgrade for most people).
Whilst GIAC make lots of maps, this may be the exact same race map as that loaded by Jim at STAR performance ?
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Good point, but does Revo insist on using high octane fuel.
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I'm the one running Revo Stg2+ with completely standard exhaust system.
Reasons for this are 2 fold.
1) Car was purchased through Audi Finance but with a full 30% deposit. Whilst I now own considerably more than half of it, and intend to pay the bubble off and keep it, under the terms and conditions of the agreement of ownership I don't have the same flexibility in terms of my modification path as those who own their cars using a bank loan option. Therefore, other than the air filter, ALL other mods are practically invisible to an initial inspection.
2) Having had a few exhausts in my time, I am now at the point where I am less impressed by the benefits of the new aftermarket systems when compared to the latest OEM ones. Yes they are better manufactured (well in some cases), but at the end of the day no matter what you bolt on the back of your car it still has to get out past fixed diameter outlets in the block. Whilst I accept and appreciate the aftermarket exhaust will be freer flowing at top end, and will assist some heat dissipation, the differences are not as big as some may leave you to believe. There is a lot of hype. When my exhaust gives up (and it will, and prematurely), it will get changed for either a full Pipewerx system, or maybe a Pipewerx DP and cats (with maybe a bypass for outside MoT season) with an OEM cat back. After cobbing out £1100 on a Milltek on my last car I'm in no rush to be passing them any money for this car as I found it added VERY little to the mix. It's no accident someone who had a very quick S3 was running an aftermarket DP, cats, and OEM cat back, as to be honest the OEM stuff is just not that bad anymore - yes it can be improved upon, but lets not kid ourselves here, these are still road cars and not even in the same league as track prepped machines. Millteks seem to be a nicely made product, but these days have become more of a bragging right to people who also have to have coilovers fitted to take their kids on the school run (don't get me started on coilovers!). When it's broke I'll change it, but I won't be mindlessly running to any one brand because I want to give them the best part of a grand or so based on being part of 'the in crowd'. Given the amount of fuel that seems to be popping in the system when you take your foot off the gas I'd say I'll be changing it sooner rather than later.
Anyway, the car seems to be running fine at present, but having said that I have now signed the kiss of doom (commentators curse).
Any maps built to run 105RON in the real world seem largely pointless given you struggle to get a true 99RON in the UK. Must surely be for purist race application. So much of the US figures based on very high octane figures, yet they all run about using 91RON!
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Agree on the exhaust bit, gonna have hybrid vs full cat back comparisons in the near future to report on.
Also there have been quite a few milly failures that I have heard about on the interweb and from people at cruises/shows.
BTW just a note, the way the yanks measure their fuel quality is different how we do it in the UK. IIRC 91 ron US is equivelant to 97ron europe.
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DC,
99 ron or equivalent is recommended by revo but no requirement for the 105 stuff.
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i have got hammer map on my car and was told about the extreme map, after hearing this i think i am just going to leave it.
As for the exhaust i totally agree with warren, i have milltek at the moment and it isnt as well built as i expected it to be, bearing mind most of the failures are caused by engine movement and this is the reason they have started giving everyone a free engine mount to try and decrease engine roll, not sure if t is helping but they have recognised the fault i suppose.
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i have got hammer map on my car and was told about the extreme map, after hearing this i think i am just going to leave it.
As for the exhaust i totally agree with warren, i have milltek at the moment and it isnt as well built as i expected it to be, bearing mind most of the failures are caused by engine movement and this is the reason they have started giving everyone a free engine mount to try and decrease engine roll, not sure if t is helping but they have recognised the fault i suppose.
:popcornsoda:
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Just get full engine mounts - problem solved :wink:
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Just get full engine mounts - problem solved :wink:
:laugh: i would say the same :evilgrin:
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Do full engine mounts make the ride harsher and engine noise worse?
Carl :happy2:
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Do full engine mounts make the ride harsher and engine noise worse?
Carl :happy2:
just more noise but it a good noise :laugh: some girls dont like it :wink: :pomppomp:
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How do you mean more noise. Is it just the acceleration noise or is it vibration etc.
How much roughly would a full set of mounts be for a Skoda vRS (Same engine as GTi)
Carl :happy2:
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its more of a growl when booting it and i have full on race mounts so its abit more hard core :laugh: as for price there a few choices about and i have vwr race ones
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been looking at the BSH ones and they seem to be getting good review so might be next on the list if i can ever get hold of Dubtek :grin:
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Do full engine mounts make the ride harsher and engine noise worse?
Carl :happy2:
just more noise but it a good noise :laugh: some girls dont like it :wink: :pomppomp:
:congrats: :congrats: :booty: :booty: :congrats: :congrats:
Just didn't like the added noise and vibration, it made me sick! And not want to drive the car.
as ever ETTO, The added vibrations will have a detrimental effect in the long term, High feq vibes always do in the end..................
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a sound clip of the grrr sound you get with the mounts
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thats the noise
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thats the noise
Yep, but mine doesn't have the milk trolley tinkle :P
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thats the noise
Yep, but mine doesn't have the milk trolley tinkle :P
:confused:
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next time i see u John i want to hear the one on yours :smiley:
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Im not that keen on the powerflex mount that my milltek has to have, as i find it adds to floor and cabin vibration on idle.
But hey ho, rather had that then a cracked milly or near solid engine mounts personally.
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next time i see u John i want to hear the one on yours :smiley:
Yep, that is doable Matt :happy2:. I think the solid race ones have "added tinkle", the VF and BSH ones just get a more muted growl. :smiley:
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been looking at the BSH ones and they seem to be getting good review so might be next on the list if i can ever get hold of Dubtek :grin:
....The thing is though that BSH don't make a proper Lower Engine Mount - They only do the side mounts. BSH offer a dogbone but it doesn't offer much improvement.
It's the Lower Engine mount which delivers the most significant power transfer benefits and you can feel it immediately after installation. Also, the VWR 'Fast Road' Lower Engine mount doesn't transfer engine bay sounds nor light buzzy vibrations. I know - I've ran it on its own and now have all 3 VWR mounts.
Mat will confirm whether the VWR solid 'Race' Lower Mount transfers any sounds/vibes or not - Mat?
Stokey, do you now have just the VWR 'Fast Road' Lower Mount? Are you feelin' any vibes, man?
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a sound clip of the grrr sound you get with the mounts
....Oh dear! Is that the Grrr which BSH mounts give? It's much more constant than my VWR. Mine only scream in under harder throttle - Sounding more like a sporty engine cylinder sound and in perfect harmony with the exhaust.
It might be the recording though. These things are tricky to record so they sound realistic.
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wheres the best place to buy the lower engine mount,
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wheres the best place to buy the lower engine mount,
http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20DrivetrainEngine%20Mounts.html :happy2:
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wheres the best place to buy the lower engine mount,
http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20DrivetrainEngine%20Mounts.html :happy2:
i see the price has dropped!
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i might get the lower subframe one ordered up then, might aswell if the subframe is getting lowered anyway.