MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: jedi-knight83 on October 18, 2011, 01:45:38 pm
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---------------Original first post below-----------------
HI.
Not sure if this is something wrong with my car / map that I need to look into more or if its just a 'feature' of the dsg box.
When i've got my foot to the floor and change up a gear there is a very slight lag before the boost comes back in again. I've changed to the revision D diverter valve and I think it improved it a little but its still there... Its about 0.5 second delay before it pushes hard again.
I didn't notice this before the map.
I've spoken to Motech who asked me to come back to data log the car and possibly re map but I just wondered if anyone else has had this.
Thanks in advance
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UPDATE...
Just got back from Motech again (http://www.motechperformance.co.uk/) and just wanted to give a thumbs up for their customer service :happy2:
Obviously after remapping my DSG GTI I had some 'lag' / 'hesitation' for a fraction of a second after a full throttle gear change. But I test drove one of their own cars today (2.0TFSI DSG) and that was perfect... so they obviously CAN correctly map this engine / gearbox combo...
Anyway... several log files and new maps later I've got a car that feels excellent again and with the problem 90% cured... It feels much better than before although I can still feel a slight hesitation still compared to their own car.
They seem committed to solving the issue though which is great to know that they dont just want to turn their back of difficult customers.
A couple of possible causes may be...
1. My car previously had a revo remap by the first owner. This was removed by the 2nd owner after lots of hassle with Revo. Revo never actually flash back the OEM stuff but instead put on their version of what standard should be. If they have done this incorrectly or put the wrong version back (for a different car or slightly difference ecu) then we could be trying to map a 'lame donkey'... So after xmas I'm going back and we are going to take the ecu out and check it properly to see if its actually got the correct software on there for the car.
2. Although there are no faults showing up I'm going to change spark plugs and look into something called an N74 valve. I've already replaced the DV with the revision D.
Anyway... Motech seem committed to finding the issue and giving me a car that performs like their demo car... even though it looks highly likely that its nothing to do with their map..
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ANOTHER UPDATE....
Just had my N75 changed and massive difference. Too early to tell as it was only a short test drive home but the post gear change pause seemed to almost have disappeared.
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ANOTHER UPDATE 12/6/12
hesitation still there and very noticeable on full throttle gear changes.
Now changed the following which hasn't solved the issue:
spark plugs
latest rev DV
N75
fuel filter
FINAL UPDATE 28/6/12 - Full explanation here... http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,36417.msg572115.html#msg572115
I'm in a rush so will write more later but BIG BIG BIG thanks to R-Tech who stepping in like a knight in oily overalls to save the day.
DSG lag now a thing of the past AND lots of problems with the Motech map resolved.... basically by ditching it and doing a customer R-Tech map.
I should have gone there from the start and will now only ever recommend mapping from a company that have the time, equipment and expertise to fault find and diagnose should something go wrong.
My car feels awesome again thanks to R-Tech.
More will be explained soon...
Nathan
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I have had this once or twice while mapping DSG cars, feels like the engine is put on pause for a moment after the gearshift. Easy to resolve though, its a software based issue as the DSG cars have a fair few extra maps that need working on compared to Manuals.
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I have had this once or twice while mapping DSG cars, feels like the engine is put on pause for a moment after the gearshift. Easy to resolve though, its a software based issue as the DSG cars have a fair few extra maps that need working on compared to Manuals.
Thanks for the reply. I'll pop back over to Motech in the next few days and get it re done.
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PDT is probably right I dont have a remapped DSG car but just thought I would sanity check as you have more power and torque now is this with ESP on and could it be a traction issue? As I have experienced that even with my 200 ponies and piddly little standard torque :signLOL:
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I have had this once or twice while mapping DSG cars, feels like the engine is put on pause for a moment after the gearshift. Easy to resolve though, its a software based issue as the DSG cars have a fair few extra maps that need working on compared to Manuals.
Thanks for the reply. I'll pop back over to Motech in the next few days and get it re done.
Good luck with this one, I had some problem with my shark map due to the dsg box!
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Good luck with this one, I had some problem with my shark map due to the dsg box!
....I heard recently that Shark is working on a DSG remap. I don't have any more information.
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Just gonna throw this out there that maybe its the fueling not getting through, as you state it happens when pushing on a bit!
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Good luck with this one, I had some problem with my shark map due to the dsg box!
....I heard recently that Shark is working on a DSG remap. I don't have any more information.
They do indeed do a remap for the 6speed manual dsg
http://www.sharkperformance.co.uk/brands/Volkswagen/Golf%20(1K)%202004-2009/Volkswagen%20Golf%20(1K)%202004-2009%20GTi%202.0TFSi/
It was teh actual map itself that had issues with the box, even the PDtuning stage 2 map had its torque limited to 280lb/ft by the gearbox
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I'm never sure DSG maps are a good idea!! I think some cars that are running well over 120 hp from their standard maps puts enough strain without this!!!
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I'm never sure DSG maps are a good idea!! I think some cars that are running well over 120 hp from their standard maps puts enough strain without this!!!
If its a safety thing then fair enough. Id rather have half a second hesitation than a broken gear box. Its still plenty fast enough even with the small hesitation... I just didnt know if it was normal or not.
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I have similar post change dwell on my DSG car, and am presently awaiting comments from the calibration provider. It isn't a problem per se, and if it is there to protect the box it is fine, I like the OP just want confirmation it is deliberate. I was going to log the changes on vcds to see what is being capped following a change to hold off the power.
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Its not there to protect the box, its only something that shows up after tuning when some of the maps are not altered as required.
We have 5+ customers with DSG/S-tronic boxes that are pushing 360+bhp and have been doing so for years with no reliability issues, I would prefer this power on a DSG than a Manual with uprated clutch.
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I never used to get this pause on the road but on track it is very noticeable when red-lining all the time, switching the traction control off seemed to help but it was still their. :happy2:
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My current stage 2 sw does this too. Its really doing my head in. If I wanted the pause during gear change, I would driving a manual. Does Revo Stage 2 or K04 stage 3 do this? Im thinking about changing the sw.
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Mine is pulling timing when it's happening, due to a torque reduction request.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fll196%2Falackofspeed%2Fpullingtimingunderload.jpg&hash=f605e1d79087032144c3ab4f7c8a9d05add655a2)
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Interesting, I've never logged that block before :stupid:
Which remap do you have? Shark had to tweak the signal from the dsg box to engine so it thought it was producing less torque than it actually was, think I gained around 50lbft this way. It went up by a further 15lbft after dsg software and 20bhp. I also ended up with a LOT of timing pull after revo dsg aswell
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Interesting, I've never logged that block before :stupid:
Which remap do you have? Shark had to tweak the signal from the dsg box to engine so it thought it was producing less torque than it actually was, think I gained around 50lbft this way. It went up by a further 15lbft after dsg software and 20bhp. I also ended up with a LOT of timing pull after revo dsg aswell
Thanks for the information - it is good to learn that the dwell can be solved.
I'm disenclined to publicise the source of my map, as I don't want my posts to be misconstrued and cause bother. I trust you understand. :happy2:
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Not really, but hope you get it sorted anyway :happy2:
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I'm disenclined to publicise the source of my map, as I don't want my posts to be misconstrued and cause bother. I trust you understand. :happy2:
This is probably one of the best forums for being able to say anything you want, provided its clean
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Its not there to protect the box, its only something that shows up after tuning when some of the maps are not altered as required.
^^^^^What PDT said.
Having double-checked my VCDS logs, and driven the car looking for the delay/surge, there's certainly an issue at part load where the torque is far from the limit of the box.
Things like this are like a scratch..... once you know it's there, you keep noticing it. :laugh:
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Well due to being pretty busy its taken me till now to go back and get another map file loaded. Im not 100% sure what was changed... but it didn't work. Still have the 'turbo lag' for 0.5 seconds after a full throttle gear change. Also the fuel economy seams terrible now.. Managed just 23mpg on a relatively easy 100 mile drive last night. was only doing 80-85 most the way.
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does no one else with a dsg have this issue?
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I think i have something similar but only appears at low speeds and revs, usually when dropping from third to second or fourth to third, the car seems to pull back briefly which sounds similar to your issue? It only happens when go manual mode though
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no mine is when your changing up.
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I think i have something similar but only appears at low speeds and revs, usually when dropping from third to second or fourth to third, the car seems to pull back briefly which sounds similar to your issue? It only happens when go manual mode though
think this is just when ou change down when the box is expecting you to go up so takes a moment longer to select the gear you want.
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So has anyone experienced this with k03 GTI Revo stg1, 2 or 2+ sw? I would assume they know what they are doing so this has been taken care of
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I think i have something similar but only appears at low speeds and revs, usually when dropping from third to second or fourth to third, the car seems to pull back briefly which sounds similar to your issue? It only happens when go manual mode though
think this is just when ou change down when the box is expecting you to go up so takes a moment longer to select the gear you want.
I'd have thought that if you at low rev's and low speed the engine would have expected for me to change down in to a lower gear
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I have had this once or twice while mapping DSG cars, feels like the engine is put on pause for a moment after the gearshift. Easy to resolve though, its a software based issue as the DSG cars have a fair few extra maps that need working on compared to Manuals.
When You say there are a couple of extra maps on a dsg... are these bits that should normally be done with a stage 1. Or are you talking about a separate DSG remap?
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Im referring to the engine ECU map, nothing to do with the DSG ECU.
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UPDATE...
Just got back from Motech again (http://www.motechperformance.co.uk/) and just wanted to give a thumbs up for their customer service :happy2:
Obviously after remapping my DSG GTI I had some 'lag' / 'hesitation' for a fraction of a second after a full throttle gear change. But I test drove one of their own cars today (2.0TFSI DSG) and that was perfect... so they obviously CAN correctly map this engine / gearbox combo...
Anyway... several log files and new maps later I've got a car that feels excellent again and with the problem 90% cured... It feels much better than before although I can still feel a slight hesitation still compared to their own car.
They seem committed to solving the issue though which is great to know that they dont just want to turn their back on difficult customers.
A couple of possible causes may be...
1. My car previously had a revo remap by the first owner. This was removed by the 2nd owner after lots of hassle with Revo. Revo never actually flash back the OEM stuff but instead put on their version of what standard should be. If they have done this incorrectly or put the wrong version back (for a different car or slightly difference ecu) then we could be trying to map a 'lame donkey'... So after xmas I'm going back and we are going to take the ecu out and check it properly to see if its actually got the correct software on there for the car.
2. Although there are no faults showing up I'm going to change spark plugs and look into something called an N74 valve. I've already replaced the DV with the revision D.
Anyway... Motech seem committed to finding the issue and giving me a car that performs like their demo car... even though it looks highly likely that its nothing to do with their map..
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A bit of thread resurrection!
I hadn't realised the thread had a slightly later follow up.
jedi-knight83 - glad you've managed to partially resolve your issues. :happy2:
I've logged mine more since this thread was started and the torque limiting is definitely not as simple as pure peak torque lopping, as suggested by my map supplier. My map supplier when approached in person was certain that the post-shift dwell on my car is all down to the gearbox torque lopping, and I gave up pushing for the engine map to be resolved based upon what PDT said.
Wish I'd gone to a different code provider now; despite in most respects the map seeming okay, the shift-dwell has really soured the experience. :confused:
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Strange considering they changed the map they did for my car when I had a 280lb/ft limit, they tweaked it and I ended up with a 330lb/ft limit?
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Wish I'd gone to a different code provider now; despite in most respects the map seeming very good (certainly smooth and easy to modulate), the shift-dwell has really soured the experience. :confused:
Who's map is it, there's no reason to hide their details imo, you've not slagged them off or anything just had an issue that they can't seem to resolve. You could save someone else having the same issues.
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my issue is still not solved but my car is currently in the garage with other issues. While its in though Im having new coil packs, n75 valve, sparks and will re asses the issue when its back.
Next step though is to go back to Motech and take the ECU out to check that part number is what the diagnostics machine thinks it is.
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i have this with revo 2+ map on ko3....thought it was normal!
PDT do all revo dealers know about this? ie if i was to go back to awesome gti is there a different map they have been told to use?
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Revo Software has no issues, The only software I see with this issue is from smaller independant tuners.
I have had 2 cars with this issue on our own map, Keano on here was one of them but after a few hours we got it solved. ECU was limiting torque and shift was delayed, DSG cars have more maps for torque limitation than manuals, its just a matter of finding them.
Have never had a Revo tune cause this problem.
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Revo Software has no issues, The only software I see with this issue is from smaller independant tuners.
I have had 2 cars with this issue on our own map, Keano on here was one of them but after a few hours we got it solved. ECU was limiting torque and shift was delayed, DSG cars have more maps for torque limitation than manuals, its just a matter of finding them.
Have never had a Revo tune cause this problem.
Its not the shift that is delayed. The shift is instant. But it then takes .5 of a second for the boost to kick back in.
Like I said though I drove Motechs own car and there was no such 'hesitation' after the gear change.
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To be clear the torque limit I have issue with is the post up-shift torque dwell, not the in gear element. The peak torque on a dyno run is still being modulated by the DSG gearbox (which I accept) at around 280 lb/ft.
I will draw a crude graph to show what I mean.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fll196%2Falackofspeed%2Fenginetorquegraph.jpg&hash=f7e8811139032307b7a8bb2307f005e8ed521adb)
The reason it bugs me is that it totally negates the benefit of the DSG - I'm far from a driving legend, but the torque interuption I introduce when shifting my manaul track car is seemingly less noticeable, though I've not quantified this with a Vbox or similar. I know from driving the other day with a friend in a fairly spirited manner, that when my car changes gear he pulls on me in a way that shouldn't happen.
As I exhausted conversation (a while ago) regarding the map being the cause the torque-dwell, I don't mind disclosing that it is a Shark map on my car, as Heavyd has eluded to.
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Two DSG cars with the same issue using the same map IMO proves it must be the map.
I also wouldnt be happy with torque staying at 280lbft. Whats the point of having stage 2+ if the torque is lopped off at 280lbft. Thats stage 1 territory
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Not sure if I mentioned it, but mine is a STG 1. 280lb/ft of torque is fine..... if it was delivered properly after a gear change. As it is, it ramps in for about 0.5 seconds post gearchange. It's most notable on part throttle or you manually change at high torque (say 4000rpm).
PDT has been very forthcoming with offline conversations on the matter. With a bit of luck I'll get it sorted.
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Thats not so bad then (thought you were stage 2+)
Still, it makes it pointless going up the modification ladder any further with this as an issue
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Thats not so bad then (thought you were stage 2+)
Still, it makes it pointless going up the modification ladder any further with this as an issue
It is not 'up the modification ladder'. The saying is down the slippery slope. :rolleye:
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To be clear the torque limit I have issue with is the post up-shift torque dwell, not the in gear element. The peak torque on a dyno run is still being modulated by the DSG gearbox (which I accept) at around 280 lb/ft.
I will draw a crude graph to show what I mean.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fll196%2Falackofspeed%2Fenginetorquegraph.jpg&hash=f7e8811139032307b7a8bb2307f005e8ed521adb)
The reason it bugs me is that it totally negates the benefit of the DSG - I'm far from a driving legend, but the torque interuption I introduce when shifting my manaul track car is seemingly less noticeable, though I've not quantified this with a Vbox or similar. I know from driving the other day with a friend in a fairly spirited manner, that when my car changes gear he pulls on me in a way that shouldn't happen.
As I exhausted conversation (a while ago) regarding the map being the cause the torque-dwell, I don't mind disclosing that it is a Shark map on my car, as Heavyd has eluded to.
perfect graph showing the issue.
AS soon as i get my car back I'll be back at Motech trying to sort the issue.. the good thing is they also seem committed to sorting it out and are not just telling me to live with it.
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That sounds just like my car was sent a Manual version map for a DSG car and it had that horrid gear/throttle pause.
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That sounds just like my car was sent a Manual version map for a DSG car and it had that horrid gear/throttle pause.
Quite possibly similar. I bet it felt much worse in an ED30 though!
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Heres 2 examples of Torque limited maps
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2F6226be19.jpg&hash=8b6401d27f97da66ffe9da89ae887e07270d7411)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2F06f004a5.jpg&hash=bb18faf4ec21d56e6f3d3ee7b2f0d9b6e32f5bdc)
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My K03 map results in a similar initial shape whilst the turbo has enough puff to hit the torque limit - when logging in VCDS you can see the closed loop control of the torque, and further evidence can be seen in the MAF values and ignition pull.
The peak torque trimming is a seperate issue to the post up-shift annoyance to my knowledge and is the engine pulling timing at the request of the gearbox, which I accept.
The post-shift issue happens at torque values lower than the maximum levels dictated by the g'box. I can't recall exact figures but I'm sure I have logs where the torque is being pulled back around 200lbft and lower.
In gear pulls in my car are not a concern of mine; a K03 stg 1 doesn't really justify any further torque handling headroom. The focus of my attention is the up-shift torque dwell.
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Right...
well I've just got my car back after having the N75 valve replaced. It was diagnosed as faulty and was causing boost issues and misfiring.
The post gear change pause seems to have almost completely gone from the short test drive home. I'm going to take it out again tonight properly but its the best its felt since remapping it.
I'll report back but for those having issue try getting this changed. Its only £25ish plus fitting.
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Glad to hear yours is improved.
I think I'm going to write my Shark map off to bad experience, and look elsewhere for a complete replacement map.
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Glad to hear yours is improved.
I think I'm going to write my Shark map off to bad experience, and look elsewhere for a complete replacement map.
:drinking:
Revo FTW :laugh:
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Dom is now officially a Revo Fanboy. :pomppomp:
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Are you running REVO now Dom lol. If you go and get the superchips you will have gone full circle :grin:
My car is currently in with Jabba getting a full custom map written for it
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Glad to hear yours is improved.
I think I'm going to write my Shark map off to bad experience, and look elsewhere for a complete replacement map.
:drinking:
Revo FTW :laugh:
If the old adage "you get what you pay for" runs true, then it would seem the correct option. It is where my money was originally going to go, but in the interests of promoting competition, I thought I'd give the smaller indepedant a chance.
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Are you running REVO now Dom lol. If you go and get the superchips you will have gone full circle :grin:
My car is currently in with Jabba getting a full custom map written for it
Cant believe you're jumping ship aswell Sy, I though you were their chief publicity agent!
Revo stage 2 :happy2: if I can stub up money for an APR fuel pump without the missus finding out, cant believe how expensive they are now though.
might even go to stage 2+ :laugh:
I'll never go back to superchips, thats for certain
It was just the fact that the two maps I already had, all logs looked wrong, overboost, throttle closing, etc etc. I got revo loaded on, everything was right first time. PDT offered to full new map for the car which would have taken hours on the dyno etc, and just couldnt be bothered with the hassle, when something out of the box worked perfectly first time around
Glad to hear yours is improved.
I think I'm going to write my Shark map off to bad experience, and look elsewhere for a complete replacement map.
:drinking:
Revo FTW :laugh:
If the old adage "you get what you pay for" runs true, then it would seem the correct option. It is where my money was originally going to go, but in the interests of promoting competition, I thought I'd give the smaller indepedant a chance.
Same here, hard lesson learned and £££££'s down the drain :surprised:
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Cant believe you're jumping ship aswell Sy, I though you were their chief publicity agent!
Revo stage 2 :happy2: if I can stub up money for an APR fuel pump without the missus finding out, cant believe how expensive they are now though.
might even go to stage 2+ :laugh:
I'll never go back to superchips, thats for certain
It was just the fact that the two maps I already had, all logs looked wrong, overboost, throttle closing, etc etc. I got revo loaded on, everything was right first time. PDT offered to full new map for the car which would have taken hours on the dyno etc, and just couldnt be bothered with the hassle, when something out of the box worked perfectly first time around
Theres a fair few issues on here with shark at the moment, mostly DSG orientated, but still not confidence boosting.
Well I wanted a full custom map or adjustable map written for the car. REVO and APR were the main choices, but APR Uk weren't confidence inspiring in their knowledge, REVO were keen to get me on board offered a very good price but would only be the generic stage 2 with no option of upgrading past stage 2 in the future which put me off. Jabba are keen to work with me on small hybrid mods etc.
they are even doing the linear throttle map for me :star: Jabba seem an absolute pleasure to work with. Sat down discussed my current set up, what i liked, what id change where id like to see gains and what i was planning in the future. Ive had to learn to drive a manual again though as i have their passat courtesy car :sick:
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Theres a fair few issues on here with shark at the moment, mostly DSG orientated, but still not confidence boosting.
If I was going to do a full appraisal of how the car drives, then I'd list some other DSG quirks that only appeared post re-map, but as they're harder to trigger I've ignored them for now.
Where are the other references to DSG and Shark? I've not looked very hard, so have clearly missed them.
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Same here, hard lesson learned and £££££'s down the drain :surprised:
My car is just the covered in road grime daily driver, so any map is a bit of a needless luxury, but tinkering is too tempting and on the odd day I'm not driving like an OAP its pleasing to have a hint more poke. I told myself I'd keep the car standard......... :stupid:
My car is running the stock map now - gear changes are far smoother and immediate regardless of engine load. Interestingly the DSG-burp is far more pronounced.
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To close out this matter from my perspective, I have now had a Revo code put on my car and so far as I can tell the shift is fine.
Note that I have ONLY had the Revo engine ecu code loaded and not the DSG ecu code.
Now to get shot of the Shark STS box.
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You'll have no problem shifting it on briskoda, I had a fair few inquiries about mine when I put it up for sale on there.
At least you're all sorted now :happy2:
What do you think of the remap compared to the shark equivalent?
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Hard to say as I've only driven the car about 7 miles since it was done, asides from the driving whilst setting it up and that wasn't very representative of normal use.
Initial impressions are positive. DSG appears to work as it does with the stock map.
I'll wait a while and get some miles on the car until I make a proper comment, but from what I've felt so far..... hindsight is an evil bitch!
Cheers for the Skoda tip off.
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This is an interesting read and sort of similar to my own experiences. I decided on Motech after reading a lot of posts and threads and, in particular, the OPs post about getting his TFSI car mapped by Motech. My graph, following my Motech map:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7088%2F6907264968_106c3aa396_b.jpg&hash=1740ce01a3d0db5a43d842491126b1c4aa4dd01e) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/johna_le3/6907264968/)
KU07 RR (http://www.flickr.com/photos/johna_le3/6907264968/) by jonnyguitar (http://www.flickr.com/people/johna_le3/), on Flickr
I have manual car but suspect my issues are due to the torque limiters not being raised. I have looked at a couple of post-Motech remap graphs and it certainly looks like they know how to map a car, but I need to do some logging to make sure I am checking the right things, and hoping for a response from Motech in the week.
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Interesting thread.
I've got the Revo DSG remap (and Revo Stage 2 ECU remap) and I also pre-release tested it for a long time. It's very smooth and really what VW should have released ex factory. I guess that an ECU remapped car will highlight the shortcomings of the OEM DSG box of tricks.
Looking at that dyno plot above, I have to say that the words "dynodaze" and "Power Runs For Fun" don't exactly inspire my confidence. Dyno days are fun socially but the process is a valuable diagnostic opportunity not an opportunity for just willy waving.
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I only thought the torque limiters were with the dsg box mind? I must add, that graph doesnt look very smooth at all,
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Interesting thread.
I've got the Revo DSG remap (and Revo Stage 2 ECU remap) and I also pre-release tested it for a long time. It's very smooth and really what VW should have released ex factory. I guess that an ECU remapped car will highlight the shortcomings of the OEM DSG box of tricks.
Looking at that dyno plot above, I have to say that the words "dynodaze" and "Power Runs For Fun" don't exactly inspire my confidence. Dyno days are fun socially but the process is a valuable diagnostic opportunity not an opportunity for just willy waving.
I was sent there on a recommendation from R-Tech (who are next door) who I rang for a booking and was told they were busy, I had the same thoughts about the name but I think it is fair to say the company shouldn't be judged by their choice of name. If anything, If anything, I think it makes them more approachable as a business and probably gives people an opportunity to learn and understand the diagnostic process and not just get a list of numbers to give them some bragging rights. These sort of opportunities should be open to everyone rather than those who think it's reserved for a select group.
The R-Tech chap, whose name escapes me now, did come in and take a look at that graph and determine that something is not right, either with the map or hardware (but suspects the map) and I plan on having the car logged by R-Tech to determine the issues.
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Get it on a decent dyno, the one you have had it tested in is a "V-tec" dyno
(for those not in the know about dyno's a good quality 2wd Dyno Dynamics or Mainline dyno which are the worlds benchmark products cost £40k+ the one used to test the above graph costs £12k, often seen for sale on ebay)
What did the datalogs and dyno results on Motechs dyno say when it was mapped? i believe they have a Dyno Dynamics? Dont see why you should pay out again for yet another company to work on the car?
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Understood, when Dynodaze was recommended by R-Tech I did question the accuracy of their dyno and was told 'about the same as ours', so had no reason to further question. I am not informed when it comes to these things, but concur that Dyno Dynamics is supposed to be the industry standard.
Motech do not own a dyno, apparently principally because of the proximity to Dyno Dynamics, they do not feel the need. Some logging was done and the car was found to be doing the necessary, although I doubt that this data was logged as a csv to show the car's behaviour under load.
I have started doing some logging and it is a case of interpreting the data. Once I understand what the cause is, I can look at a solution (whether it's hardware or map).
I'd rather not spend out money with somebody else on sorting this out, if it's not a hardware issue, but hopefully I'll get a response from Motech in the week and we can go from there.
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God luck with it, if you need any help with logs, just ask.
Love the reason behind not having a dyno :signLOL:
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I think before putting dynodaze down you need to get facts correct. :smiley:
The "V-tec" dyno gives acutally fly wheel readings calculated from wheel hp and coast down losses, it dont guess fly wheel the power like a DD rolling road.. :sick: LOL If you can answer me the question how does a DD rolling road give actual flywheel hp readings?? As IMO a DD rr is only good for TRUE wheel HP numbers? :wink: (well marketed the only reason I cancled my order with Mike @ DD he could not show me how the system worked out the trasmission losses)
The picture on ebay is the base line model for £12k, inerita only pc based, the one dynodaze use has the full controller with 128 input highspeed data logging. It works really well and give correct numbers and graphs by using raw data, not fancy algorithms like thr DD to work fly wheel hp out.
Its a very good rolling road setup, its unbias as dyno daze dont sell remaps or software they just do rolling road power runs and logging and rent out to tuners to fill a void in the market. It reads simalar number to my Bosch dyno +/-2hp and about bang on wheel HP as the two DD rolling roads I use, the only variation between all four dynos is the reading at the fly v both the DDs. The reason I send people to dynodaze who want to there cars tested with other tuners map is to get rid of the bias factor. If there are issues then we will take on the added logging work to find faults.
All of my rolling road days are now ran on the dyno daze rolling road so I dont get called bias... If it was crap I am 100% sure I would not put name name aginst it.
You will find a lot of maps which aint setup on a dyno feel good on the road but dont offer the smoothest graphs, a dyno at the end of the day is a tool to aid tuning and to gain a visual picture of whats going on.
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i was always under the impression that DD rollers apply a set transmission loss set from a database. This is why its WHP that is accurate on the DD rollers and not Fly Hp as it doesnt take into account how tight its strapped or tyre presures etc. What that does mean though is DD rollers are consistent between cars at different DD rollers.
Others such as MAHA and Bapro rollers for instance use the coast down method to measure the actual losses.
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i was always under the impression that DD rollers apply a set transmission loss set from a database. This is why its WHP that is accurate on the DD rollers and not Fly Hp as it doesnt take into account how tight its strapped or tyre presures etc. What that does mean though is DD rollers are consistent between cars at different DD rollers.
Others such as MAHA and Bapro rollers for instance use the coast down method to measure the actual losses.
What that does mean though is DD rollers are consistent between cars at different DD rollers. Marketing stunt. They are not consistent across the UK some read low and get called heath breakers some read realistic and some read happy.
Good DD ops should give reading both at fly wheel and wheel, when I use the 4wd DD dyno I always give the readings of wheel hp and fly hp. On my dyno I give the graph with wheel hp curve with losses at the bottom to give a measured fly wheel hp reading.
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The logging runs suggest the car is OK. A much more knowledgable person that I has suggested that a different intake may smooth things out a little but I am unconvinced that there is not something in the map causing the dip, which I can feel on the road as well as is apparent plotted on the graph. I am awaiting a response from Motech but hopefully this can be resolved quickly like the OP's issue.
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The logging runs suggest the car is OK. A much more knowledgable person that I has suggested that a different intake may smooth things out a little but I am unconvinced that there is not something in the map causing the dip, which I can feel on the road as well as is apparent plotted on the graph. I am awaiting a response from Motech but hopefully this can be resolved quickly like the OP's issue.
The dyno graph will show whats going on on the road, some dyno operators use very high graph filters to smooth the plots out to make the curve "look" good and give higher number. I know dynodaze use a very low graph filter as there task is just to show the customer the power output and a true plot of what the car is doing.
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Understood, so would you expect some small peaks like the graph shows or would you expect it to be dead smooth?
An excerpt of a log below, does show the torque drops off fairly readily. Get your specs out, helps if you open the image and then zoom in a bit.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7183%2F6928159626_e16cdcdde1_o.jpg&hash=a9dc8153e863e3fbaf603b01567b65f2af1977da) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/johna_le3/6928159626/)
Log (http://www.flickr.com/photos/johna_le3/6928159626/) by jonnyguitar (http://www.flickr.com/people/johna_le3/), on Flickr
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N75 PID controller occilations is your cause dude.. :wink:
The requested ramp rate of the boost is far to low and linear for a basic 1bar tune.
KFLDIMX ( i pilot N75% control on spool up) is a little to aggressive for the profile of the LDRXN (boost/load request curve) ECU seeing 250mb of boost overshoot around 2500rpm the ecu via PID controllers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller is trying to bring the boost in line. The problem is when controlling boost with around 50% DC is that the N75 is more like an on off swicth and is hard to get linear control in short period of time.
Easy fix would be set the LDRXN boost/load profile to match the actual boost by requesting the boost to spool and peak to 2250mb, Plus the ecu finds it hard to hold a flat line boost your map is 2000mb flat line which keeps N75 around that 50% mark, maybe worth going for 2080/2090mb to ride the n75 close to 60%.
I am sure Mike will find this area and cure it for you.
Nick
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N75 PID controller occilations is your cause dude.. :wink:
The requested ramp rate of the boost is far to low and linear for a basic 1bar tune.
KFLDIMX ( i pilot N75% control on spool up) is a little to aggressive for the profile of the LDRXN (boost/load request curve) ECU seeing 250mb of boost overshoot around 2500rpm the ecu via PID controllers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller is trying to bring the boost in line. The problem is when controlling boost with around 50% DC is that the N75 is more like an on off swicth and is hard to get linear control in short period of time.
Easy fix would be set the LDRXN boost/load profile to match the actual boost by requesting the boost to spool and peak to 2250mb, Plus the ecu finds it hard to hold a flat line boost your map is 2000mb flat line which keeps N75 around that 50% mark, maybe worth going for 2080/2090mb to ride the n75 close to 60%.
I am sure Mike will find this area and cure it for you.
Nick
Makes perfect sense to me. :rolleye:
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N75 PID controller occilations is your cause dude.. :wink:
The requested ramp rate of the boost is far to low and linear for a basic 1bar tune.
KFLDIMX ( i pilot N75% control on spool up) is a little to aggressive for the profile of the LDRXN (boost/load request curve) ECU seeing 250mb of boost overshoot around 2500rpm the ecu via PID controllers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller is trying to bring the boost in line. The problem is when controlling boost with around 50% DC is that the N75 is more like an on off swicth and is hard to get linear control in short period of time.
Easy fix would be set the LDRXN boost/load profile to match the actual boost by requesting the boost to spool and peak to 2250mb, Plus the ecu finds it hard to hold a flat line boost your map is 2000mb flat line which keeps N75 around that 50% mark, maybe worth going for 2080/2090mb to ride the n75 close to 60%.
I am sure Mike will find this area and cure it for you.
Nick
Makes perfect sense to me. :rolleye:
lol
Read up about PID controllers you will understand it lots better. PID controllers play a huge part in the Bosch ecus and mapping
I have a 4500 page German Bosch MED9 TFSI functions PDF which explains every thing about your ecus, If I can find a good site to share the file I will try and post it up here I makes good reading and sheds a lot of light on a lot of post remap issues.
Nick
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To be clear the torque limit I have issue with is the post up-shift torque dwell, not the in gear element. The peak torque on a dyno run is still being modulated by the DSG gearbox (which I accept) at around 280 lb/ft.
I will draw a crude graph to show what I mean.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fll196%2Falackofspeed%2Fenginetorquegraph.jpg&hash=f7e8811139032307b7a8bb2307f005e8ed521adb)
The reason it bugs me is that it totally negates the benefit of the DSG - I'm far from a driving legend, but the torque interuption I introduce when shifting my manaul track car is seemingly less noticeable, though I've not quantified this with a Vbox or similar. I know from driving the other day with a friend in a fairly spirited manner, that when my car changes gear he pulls on me in a way that shouldn't happen.
As I exhausted conversation (a while ago) regarding the map being the cause the torque-dwell, I don't mind disclosing that it is a Shark map on my car, as Heavyd has eluded to.
perfect graph showing the issue.
AS soon as i get my car back I'll be back at Motech trying to sort the issue.. the good thing is they also seem committed to sorting it out and are not just telling me to live with it.
Hi guys.
Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I've been having a similar issue with my stage 2 remapped GTI.
I notice a hesitation when changing gear at wide open throttle approxmately around 3k RPM. Foot flat in second gear and if I change up to 3rd at about 3K RPM it changes gear fast but then there's a delay before the power comes back on strong. It only does this around 3-5k RPM The car still pulls hard, nothing wrong with the power I don't think.
jedi-knight83- did you finally sort it out 100%?
Thanks very much!
M
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Hi guys.
Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I've been having a similar issue with my stage 2 remapped GTI.
I notice a hesitation when changing gear at wide open throttle approxmately around 3k RPM. Foot flat in second gear and if I change up to 3rd at about 3K RPM it changes gear fast but then there's a delay before the power comes back on strong. It only does this around 3-5k RPM The car still pulls hard, nothing wrong with the power I don't think.
....Firstly, A Very Warm Welcome to the forum (and the slippery slope of modding!), M :happy2:
What you describe sounds as if it might possibly be a fuel pump issue but only if you are remapped and have an efficient aftermarket air intake as well. I had this behaviour (but no fuel cuts) on Revo Stage 2 after fitting a Forge Twintake. An APR HPFP has solved it.
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Thanks RedRobin!
I have the stage 2 software and a 76mm decat downpipe that it requires. No intake (yet!).
There's no hesitation when changing gear higher in the rev range (above 5K or below 2K).
It's only around 3K that it happens. Almost feels like a manual shift.
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Not solved mine yet. Been so busy with work its slipped off my priority list.
Mine 'improved' after a new N75 valve and fuel filter... might have been psychological though as its still pretty noticeable at times.
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So my car is still 'hesitating' for .5 of a second before it comes back on boost after a DSG gear change.
Motech are sure its not the map.
I've changed sparks, DV, N75, Fuel filter. Also had the car checked for boost leaks.
Kind of at a dead end now of what to look for next!?
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So my car is still 'hesitating' for .5 of a second before it comes back on boost after a DSG gear change.
Motech are sure its not the map.
I've changed sparks, DV, N75, Fuel filter. Also had the car checked for boost leaks.
Kind of at a dead end now of what to look for next!?
Just to recap... is this in ALL DSG modes, even Manual? Or does it only happen in D (Drive) ?
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So my car is still 'hesitating' for .5 of a second before it comes back on boost after a DSG gear change.
Motech are sure its not the map.
I've changed sparks, DV, N75, Fuel filter. Also had the car checked for boost leaks.
Kind of at a dead end now of what to look for next!?
Is this map removeable?
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So my car is still 'hesitating' for .5 of a second before it comes back on boost after a DSG gear change.
Motech are sure its not the map.
I've changed sparks, DV, N75, Fuel filter. Also had the car checked for boost leaks.
Kind of at a dead end now of what to look for next!?
Just to recap... is this in ALL DSG modes, even Manual? Or does it only happen in D (Drive) ?
well 'D' changes too early to really notice it. Its only when your foot to the floor and changing gear that you feel it pause for half a second. Sometimes its more noticeable than other times but I mainly feel it in manual mode. I never really use 'S' but I've tested it and it also does it in 'S'
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So my car is still 'hesitating' for .5 of a second before it comes back on boost after a DSG gear change.
Motech are sure its not the map.
I've changed sparks, DV, N75, Fuel filter. Also had the car checked for boost leaks.
Kind of at a dead end now of what to look for next!?
Is this map removeable?
Have you asked VW for a stock map.? Not a mock version.. All this will be down to the map.
Have you tried DSG clutch reset in VCDS?
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So my car is still 'hesitating' for .5 of a second before it comes back on boost after a DSG gear change.
Motech are sure its not the map.
I've changed sparks, DV, N75, Fuel filter. Also had the car checked for boost leaks.
Kind of at a dead end now of what to look for next!?
Is this map removeable?
Yes. He took a copy of my standard map before remapping so he can flash that back on and infact has done and then we have tried 3 or 4 different maps with less boost etc.
With OEM boost you cant notice it. With the boost level of the remap its very noticeable to me.
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So my car is still 'hesitating' for .5 of a second before it comes back on boost after a DSG gear change.
Motech are sure its not the map.
I've changed sparks, DV, N75, Fuel filter. Also had the car checked for boost leaks.
Kind of at a dead end now of what to look for next!?
Is this map removeable?
Have you asked VW for a stock map.? Not a mock version.. All this will be down to the map.
Have you tried DSG clutch reset in VCDS?
I didnt know I could ask VW for a stock map?
I also feel it may well be something to do with the fact it was originally revo mapped and they then put their version of OEM back on it.
But then before mapping, Motech took that off and put on a file they said was a proper VW OEM map... and then they remapped the car.
No I havent tried a DSG clutch reset either.
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So my car is still 'hesitating' for .5 of a second before it comes back on boost after a DSG gear change.
Motech are sure its not the map.
I've changed sparks, DV, N75, Fuel filter. Also had the car checked for boost leaks.
Kind of at a dead end now of what to look for next!?
Is this map removeable?
Have you asked VW for a stock map.? Not a mock version.. All this will be down to the map.
Have you tried DSG clutch reset in VCDS?
I didnt know I could ask VW for a stock map?
I also feel it may well be something to do with the fact it was originally revo mapped and they then put their version of OEM back on it.
But then before mapping, Motech took that off and put on a file they said was a proper VW OEM map... and then they remapped the car.
No I havent tried a DSG clutch reset either.
your dealer will be able to flash a genuine map on it. it will give you a fresh base to check the car before putting a remap back on.
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The dealers around where I live had no idea how to put a full vwstock map on my car.
If it was a full revo stock flash, it will have been ok.
Why dont you get someone to do a vcds scan and log the torque limiter block to see if the DSG is interfering?
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The dealers around where I live had no idea how to put a full vwstock map on my car.
If it was a full revo stock flash, it will have been ok.
Why dont you get someone to do a vcds scan and log the torque limiter block to see if the DSG is interfering?
I can borrow the vagcom cable for a while and log it myself if someone can be kind enough to tell me what to check :)
I can also try this dsg clutch reset too if its easy enough.
Motech said that revo dont put the proper OEM map on the car... just their version of what they think OEM should be... hence why he flashed a new OEM map on the car first...
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so does anyone have any idea how much getting VW to re flash the ecu would be?
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so does anyone have any idea how much getting VW to re flash the ecu would be?
Just answered this myself :wink:
VW cambridge want £108 (thats their hours labour BTW!!) to reflash the ECU. HOWEVER... they say they cant guarantee it will work as its previously be mapped.
If it doesnt work I will still have to pay the £108 and would then have to look at replacing the ECU.
:fighting:
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so does anyone have any idea how much getting VW to re flash the ecu would be?
Just answered this myself :wink:
VW cambridge want £108 (thats their hours labour BTW!!) to reflash the ECU. HOWEVER... they say they cant guarantee it will work as its previously be mapped.
If it doesnt work I will still have to pay the £108 and would then have to look at replacing the ECU.
:fighting:
Just phoned a different dealer and the same cost but they said if there is an update they can do it... if not they wont be able to. They can check for free if there is an update so I've booked it in for next monday.
quick question though.... I've got a updated canbus (for my RCD510)... will this affect that and i'll need to reset it myself with vagcom again?
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Just found this old thread...
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7359.0.html
same issue and it was down to a manual map rather than DSG.
Between the car being mapped at revo and then put back to 'standard' and then Motech mapping it... I wonder if things have got mixed up.
Surely its pretty easy to see if one is manual and one is DSG though?
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You shouldnt be in a position to have to work all of this out yourself, your tuner should be doing it all for you.
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You shouldnt be in a position to have to work all of this out yourself, your tuner should be doing it all for you.
to be fair on Motech i guess its not their fault?
I mean its revo's fault for not putting a correct OEM map back on it?
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Just found this old thread...
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7359.0.html
same issue and it was down to a manual map rather than DSG.
Between the car being mapped at revo and then put back to 'standard' and then Motech mapping it... I wonder if things have got mixed up.
Surely its pretty easy to see if one is manual and one is DSG though?
You would know if they did as the car is undriveable with the wrong map on as supplied by Supperchips.
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You shouldnt be in a position to have to work all of this out yourself, your tuner should be doing it all for you.
to be fair on Motech i guess its not their fault?
I mean its revo's fault for not putting a correct OEM map back on it?
Hasnt got anything to do with it. Anybody with a bit of time on their hands can find an OEM map on the net.
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You shouldnt be in a position to have to work all of this out yourself, your tuner should be doing it all for you.
to be fair on Motech i guess its not their fault?
I mean its revo's fault for not putting a correct OEM map back on it?
Hasnt got anything to do with it. Anybody with a bit of time on their hands can find an OEM map on the net.
so rather than pay £108 for VW to put a stock map back on the car i should ask Motech to find one?
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You shouldnt be in a position to have to work all of this out yourself, your tuner should be doing it all for you.
to be fair on Motech i guess its not their fault?
I mean its revo's fault for not putting a correct OEM map back on it?
Hasnt got anything to do with it. Anybody with a bit of time on their hands can find an OEM map on the net.
so rather than pay £108 for VW to put a stock map back on the car i should ask Motech to find one?
Definetly.
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Just found this old thread...
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7359.0.html
same issue and it was down to a manual map rather than DSG.
Between the car being mapped at revo and then put back to 'standard' and then Motech mapping it... I wonder if things have got mixed up.
Surely its pretty easy to see if one is manual and one is DSG though?
You would know if they did as the car is undriveable with the wrong map on as supplied by Supperchips.
It's not because I drove mine like it for a month :confused: .it was driveable but delay on change up was pants like the O.P is suffering.
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Just found this old thread...
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7359.0.html
same issue and it was down to a manual map rather than DSG.
Between the car being mapped at revo and then put back to 'standard' and then Motech mapping it... I wonder if things have got mixed up.
Surely its pretty easy to see if one is manual and one is DSG though?
P.S. Phil Mcavity was my old username... It was my car :happy2:
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Just found this old thread...
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7359.0.html
same issue and it was down to a manual map rather than DSG.
Between the car being mapped at revo and then put back to 'standard' and then Motech mapping it... I wonder if things have got mixed up.
Surely its pretty easy to see if one is manual and one is DSG though?
You would know if they did as the car is undriveable with the wrong map on as supplied by Supperchips.
It's not because I drove mine like it for a month :confused: .it was driveable but delay on change up was pants like the O.P is suffering.
I seem to remember you saying that as you'd never driven a mapped car you thought that was how it was supposed to be. :confused:
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Just found this old thread...
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7359.0.html
same issue and it was down to a manual map rather than DSG.
Between the car being mapped at revo and then put back to 'standard' and then Motech mapping it... I wonder if things have got mixed up.
Surely its pretty easy to see if one is manual and one is DSG though?
You would know if they did as the car is undriveable with the wrong map on as supplied by Supperchips.
It's not because I drove mine like it for a month :confused: .it was driveable but delay on change up was pants like the O.P is suffering.
I seem to remember you saying that as you'd never driven a mapped car you thought that was how it was supposed to be. :confused:
That's correct.. My point was that u said the car would be undriveable.
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This "Hesitation" is due to DSG box torque limiters is it not?, once DSG map done it goes away?
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Just found this old thread...
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7359.0.html
same issue and it was down to a manual map rather than DSG.
Between the car being mapped at revo and then put back to 'standard' and then Motech mapping it... I wonder if things have got mixed up.
Surely its pretty easy to see if one is manual and one is DSG though?
You would know if they did as the car is undriveable with the wrong map on as supplied by Supperchips.
It's not because I drove mine like it for a month :confused: .it was driveable but delay on change up was pants like the O.P is suffering.
I seem to remember you saying that as you'd never driven a mapped car you thought that was how it was supposed to be. :confused:
That's correct.. My point was that u said the car would be undriveable.
Well mine was. Mine was also stage 2.
This "Hesitation" is due to DSG box torque limiters is it not?, once DSG map done it goes away?
Not for the Supperchips cars. Wrong map supplied.
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This "Hesitation" is due to DSG box torque limiters is it not?, once DSG map done it goes away?
but i dont want a dsg map and tbh dont feel I should need one for a stage 1 map to function properly.
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This "Hesitation" is due to DSG box torque limiters is it not?, once DSG map done it goes away?
but i dont want a dsg map and tbh dont feel I should need one for a stage 1 map to function properly.
It seems like your getting nowhere fast with this one.
Pop it up to me I will take a look for you £FOC, I have all the stock map revisions read from 6MT and DSG cars, I have a data base of maps which are known to me to be working 100% with the DSG. Plus I can also adjust the DSG torque limiter if needed or even use a later stock dsg map.
When tuning the 6MT TFSI map I adjust the load axis scaling to give me better scope on the engine ecu torque structure, but if I apply the same mapping style to the DGS car I tend to get minor torque relation issues between the engine and dsg ecu shich can cause shift delay or torque limiting via the dsg.
But on the other hand the engine load axis scaling could be used to fool the dsg ecu to think the engine is at a lower torque output which will allow for more torque to the wheels.
Plus there are some early engine map and dsg map versions which when tuned dont work too well together.
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Just found this old thread...
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7359.0.html
same issue and it was down to a manual map rather than DSG.
Between the car being mapped at revo and then put back to 'standard' and then Motech mapping it... I wonder if things have got mixed up.
Surely its pretty easy to see if one is manual and one is DSG though?
You would know if they did as the car is undriveable with the wrong map on as supplied by Supperchips.
It's not because I drove mine like it for a month :confused: .it was driveable but delay on change up was pants like the O.P is suffering.
I seem to remember you saying that as you'd never driven a mapped car you thought that was how it was supposed to be. :confused:
That's correct.. My point was that u said the car would be undriveable.
Well mine was. Mine was also stage 2.
This "Hesitation" is due to DSG box torque limiters is it not?, once DSG map done it goes away?
Not for the Supperchips cars. Wrong map supplied.
Mine was stage 1 with the issue. Not this problem on stage 2. :wink:
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This "Hesitation" is due to DSG box torque limiters is it not?, once DSG map done it goes away?
but i dont want a dsg map and tbh dont feel I should need one for a stage 1 map to function properly.
It seems like your getting nowhere fast with this one.
Pop it up to me I will take a look for you £FOC, I have all the stock map revisions read from 6MT and DSG cars, I have a data base of maps which are known to me to be working 100% with the DSG. Plus I can also adjust the DSG torque limiter if needed or even use a later stock dsg map.
When tuning the 6MT TFSI map I adjust the load axis scaling to give me better scope on the engine ecu torque structure, but if I apply the same mapping style to the DGS car I tend to get minor torque relation issues between the engine and dsg ecu shich can cause shift delay or torque limiting via the dsg.
But on the other hand the engine load axis scaling could be used to fool the dsg ecu to think the engine is at a lower torque output which will allow for more torque to the wheels.
Plus there are some early engine map and dsg map versions which when tuned dont work too well together.
Thank you. That is a mighty fine offer. I would be happy to pay for RR time and diagnostics etc... infact someone recommended I bring it to you anyway.
End of the day I dont mind paying for the right solution.. I just didn't want to be throwing money at VW to put a stock map on it and then get it tunned again only to find it hasn't solved anything.
I'll give you a call tomorrow. :happy2:
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I had a Shark map on my K03 car, which dwelled horribly on an upchange. I got nowhere with a resolution of that map, so took the hit and went for a straightforward local option and now run Revo software. Not a hint of a problem with that now on the car.
From logging the MAF the revo map appears to make much more power, especially in the mid-range. I'm not saying Revo is the be all and end all, just that in my case the problem was clearly demonstrated to be the Shark software.
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Its concerning that so many tuned cars need to be re-tuned and fixed by other tuners, but sadly this is where the industry is at the moment. Anyone with a laptop and a disc full of files can call themselfes a tuner. :sad1:
Needs some sort of regulation I think.
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This "Hesitation" is due to DSG box torque limiters is it not?, once DSG map done it goes away?
but i dont want a dsg map and tbh dont feel I should need one for a stage 1 map to function properly.
It seems like your getting nowhere fast with this one.
Pop it up to me I will take a look for you £FOC, I have all the stock map revisions read from 6MT and DSG cars, I have a data base of maps which are known to me to be working 100% with the DSG. Plus I can also adjust the DSG torque limiter if needed or even use a later stock dsg map.
When tuning the 6MT TFSI map I adjust the load axis scaling to give me better scope on the engine ecu torque structure, but if I apply the same mapping style to the DGS car I tend to get minor torque relation issues between the engine and dsg ecu shich can cause shift delay or torque limiting via the dsg.
But on the other hand the engine load axis scaling could be used to fool the dsg ecu to think the engine is at a lower torque output which will allow for more torque to the wheels.
Plus there are some early engine map and dsg map versions which when tuned dont work too well together.
Booked in with R-Tech :happy2:
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I have torque reduction on from 2500rpm to 6000rpm atleast in 2nd and 3rd gears :) gear changes up have a nice lag to them too.
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Why didn't you just have the REVO map turned back on? I bet it'd have cost you nothing at most places, maybe an hours labour at a few.
Oh, and then got your money back of the clowns who have messed you about to the point where you're god knows how many pages into a thread and having to go to a 3rd tuner for help.
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Its concerning that so many tuned cars need to be re-tuned and fixed by other tuners, but sadly this is where the industry is at the moment. Anyone with a laptop and a disc full of files can call themselfes a tuner. :sad1:
Needs some sort of regulation I think.
....I couldn't agree more. Too many people are solely price led and buy cheap and then need to buy twice :stupid:
But who would be the regularity body be? An association of established and reputable tuners? And who would test the standards required? - Unfortunately it doesn't look at all easy.
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Its concerning that so many tuned cars need to be re-tuned and fixed by other tuners, but sadly this is where the industry is at the moment. Anyone with a laptop and a disc full of files can call themselfes a tuner. :sad1:
Needs some sort of regulation I think.
Thats great news! I've got a laptop and a disc full of tuning files. I can call myself a tuner now :drinking:
I've got no idea how to load them onto a car, and i wouldnt even try anway :confused:
I guess that doesnt stop most people though!
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Why didn't you just have the REVO map turned back on? I bet it'd have cost you nothing at most places, maybe an hours labour at a few.
Oh, and then got your money back of the clowns who have messed you about to the point where you're god knows how many pages into a thread and having to go to a 3rd tuner for help.
I didnt know it was an option to 'just get the revo map turned on' again. And having had revo on my S3 and it being very agressive, and having been recommended Motech by a couple of friends who had good experiences I spoke to him and he said he could do a smoother map.
The Motech maps are actually written by Richard Washbrook (ex revo and APR apparently) so was confident it wasnt just a 'kid with a laptop' that was going to mess with the car.
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Its concerning that so many tuned cars need to be re-tuned and fixed by other tuners, but sadly this is where the industry is at the moment. Anyone with a laptop and a disc full of files can call themselfes a tuner. :sad1:
Needs some sort of regulation I think.
....I couldn't agree more. Too many people are solely price led and buy cheap and then need to buy twice :stupid:
But who would be the regularity body be? An association of established and reputable tuners? And who would test the standards required? - Unfortunately it doesn't look at all easy.
I dont want this to turn into a slagging match against any tuners. Cost is irrelevant and from what I understand Motech are similarly priced to R-Tech anyway so Its not that I went there because they were cheap. I chose them after a couple of good recommendations and after they had also done my van and my dads car and after hearing who actually wrote the maps.
I've tried not to slag them off at all through this thread and indeed praised them for spending half a day with the car trying different maps.
This thread wasn't a plee for charity and although R-Techs offer is extremely kind I still offered to pay for any work done. Like I've said, I dont mind paying but dont want to be throwing money away getting VW to flash it to standard only to have the same issue when its remapped again so the fact R-Tech seem confident they can solve it is of great interest to me.
Also, the thread has gone on seems to be in part to the fact that other people have experienced similar issues so its not just me whining on and on until someone helps. I have been proactive and have had various parts changed on the car in an effort to fix the issue... but when none of those things work... most peoples next move is to jump back on the forums as 9/10 there is someone out there who has already experienced the issue.
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Big :congrats: to Rtech for offering to sort the issue, lets hope its something simple. Theres nothing worse than an annoying problem on a car that you have to drive everyday.
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It will be nice to try and find out whats going on which some of these DSG cars and delayed shift. I will help me understand more and help other tuners who have this issue.
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It will be nice to try and find out whats going on which some of these DSG cars and delayed shift. I will help me understand more and help other tuners who have this issue.
....There speaks a wise man. It's largely by exploring and diagnosing problems that more knowledge is gained and your services benefit. It's a win-win :happy2:
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It will be nice to try and find out whats going on which some of these DSG cars and delayed shift. I will help me understand more and help other tuners who have this issue.
I'm presuming the problem had by the OP is the same as me from the description, which I would describe as deliberate engine torque reduction post shift. There's no problem with the speed of the shift per se - the dsg works fine - it's the way the engine torque is interupted during the shift. On my car it was most noticeable if you had WOT and shifted manually at or around peak torque (say 4000 rpm).
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It will be nice to try and find out whats going on which some of these DSG cars and delayed shift. I will help me understand more and help other tuners who have this issue.
I'm presuming the problem had by the OP is the same as me from the description, which I would describe as deliberate engine torque reduction post shift. There's no problem with the speed of the shift per se - the dsg works fine - it's the way the engine torque is interupted during the shift. On my car it was most noticeable if you had WOT and shifted manually at or around peak torque (say 4000 rpm).
'was'... did yours get sorted?
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'was'... did yours get sorted?
Yup - nothing wrong with the engine / gearbox, all software:
I had a Shark map on my K03 car, which dwelled horribly on an upchange. I got nowhere with a resolution of that map, so took the hit and went for a straightforward local option and now run Revo software. Not a hint of a problem with that now on the car.
From logging the MAF the revo map appears to make much more power, especially in the mid-range. I'm not saying Revo is the be all and end all, just that in my case the problem was clearly demonstrated to be the Shark software.
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I'm in a rush so will write more later but BIG BIG BIG thanks to R-Tech for stepping in like a knight in oily overalls to save the day.
DSG lag now a thing of the past AND lots of problems with the Motech map resolved.... basically by ditching it and doing a customer R-Tech map.
I should have gone there from the start and will now only ever recommend mapping from a company that have the time, equipment and expertise to fault find and diagnose should something go wrong.
My car feels awesome again thanks to R-Tech.
More will be explained soon...
Nathan
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The Motech maps are actually written by Richard Washbrook (ex revo and APR apparently) so was confident it wasnt just a 'kid with a laptop' that was going to mess with the car.
So at least it wasn't the remap :popcornsoda:
Glad you got it sorted, rtech to the rescue once again :drinking:
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The Motech maps are actually written by Richard Washbrook (ex revo and APR apparently) so was confident it wasnt just a 'kid with a laptop' that was going to mess with the car.
So at least it wasn't the remap :popcornsoda:
Glad you got it sorted, rtech to the rescue once again :drinking:
I'm happy to eat my words and equally happy to state that I will not be taking any other cars to motech or recommending them and I've sent a long detailed email to them with todays findings and look forward to their response.
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Great news, I was confident it was software related all along as I had seen it before.
Goes to show the difference in software quality.
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Great news, I was confident it was software related all along as I had seen it before.
Goes to show the difference in software quality.
Would love to know if a backup copy of the old motech map was kept, would be interested to see it and see if it came from the same scource as I think it did.
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Great news, I was confident it was software related all along as I had seen it before.
Goes to show the difference in software quality.
Would love to know if a backup copy of the old motech map was kept, would be interested to see it and see if it came from the same scource as I think it did.
You will laugh at this Dave, After I finished the one above I started to tune another 2005 mk5 Gti which already had a stage2+ from another tuner. I read the file off and open in ols and found it to be the exact same map as the motech map but with the LDR raised by another 20% and the n75 I reg maxed to 100%.
Send me an email to my mobile and i will send you the backup over, nokiafix@hotmail.com
Nick
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After I finished the one above I started to tune another 2005 mk5 Gti which already had a stage2+ from another tuner. I read the file off and open in ols and found it to be the exact same map as the motech map but with the LDR raised by another 20% and the n75 I reg maxed to 100%.
....That is very scary! :scared: - It shows yet again the importance of going to a tuner with an established good reputation and not to be led by only a cheap price.
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So... Very enlightening day yesterday.
Again a huge thanks to Nick at R-Tech http://www.r-techpower.co.uk/ for all his help.
Really highlighted the importance of getting your car tuned by a company with the tools and knowledge to fault find and properly diagnose the car
So I'm happy to eat humble pie and admit that it seems the map that Motech applied was pretty poor. Nick checked their software against a known DSG map and found an area of code that conflicted. In his words he had "seen it before and presumed it was an area in the engine map where DSG and Manual differed but this confirmed it for him". He applied the DSG code to the motech map and I went out for a test and the issue was 100% solved instantly. I can also confirm that all of the drive home and driving last night the DSG change is now quick and punchy and the power is straight there afterwards like there is no let up atall... or im lamans terms... How it flipping should have been after Motech mapped it.
In short.... Motech had uploaded a map to my DSG car with Manual coding in it and this was affecting the power after the gear change.
The fun continued when we put the car onto the dyno..... which came at a VERY VERY lucky time for me as just as my car was put indoors... this happened.......
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,49887.0.html
Anyway.....
Motechs stage 1 now adjusted for DSG ran 214bhp@4467 and 284.9@3247
The worse thing was Nick showed me the N75 duty cycle was at 98% the whole run so the poor little turbo was working flat out to try to meet the levels Motech were requesting. He also said the fuelling was very heavy (hence my constantly black exhaust and dirty rear end)
Nick lept into action and checked the car over and ended up changing the PCV as it was showing signs of sticking intermittently. This got us to 225bhp but the turbo was still working flat out.
He checked and changed the DV as my 6 month old rev D DV had broken and was bleeding a bit of air. He has advised I get a rev G now and said that everyone should listen to him that rev D are poorly designed :) Unfortunately a new DV didnt cure the power or turbo effort but at least I know its not going to fail in the near future now.
He then decided to completely remove the motech map and apply one of his own that he then spent a long time tweaking and customising in between various power runs. The end result was:
R-Techs Stage 1 custom ran 234.3bhp@5599 and 281.8@3131 The N75 duty cycle was also down to 85% in the middle of the run so much healthier for the car.
Nick has advised that I get the pre cat knocked out and then run the car for a month. Because of the motech over fuelling its likely that the cat is pretty bunged up at the moment but now the fuel levels are reduced this should burn off and allow it to breath better again. I'm also going to try to get an air intake to help with the flow as well and then return in a month for another few runs and hopefully with will then be a nice healthy stage1 with 240+
So all in all Nick spent about 6 hours fixing someone else's mess :drinking:
I urge anyone looking at remapping their car that is close enough to use R-Tech. If thats not practical, use a tuner that has a dyno and knows what they are doing!!!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2FDSC02174.jpg&hash=b3d08881dfa349aadaa91c765252dce61554dc21)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv453%2Fjedi-knight83%2FCar%2520Stuff%2FGolf%2520GTI%2Fredmk5dsgrtech.jpg&hash=f9b2d7ce1ad25a4e340281409c7a54ffa6e25dd3)
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@ R-Tech Nick:
You might wish to comment about the G vs D revision DV in this thread: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,49862.0.html
Keep up the great work, Nick :happy2: If I wasn't happy with JKM, you'd be the man!
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You will laugh at this Dave, After I finished the one above I started to tune another 2005 mk5 Gti which already had a stage2+ from another tuner. I read the file off and open in ols and found it to be the exact same map as the motech map but with the LDR raised by another 20% and the n75 I reg maxed to 100%.
N75 at 100% for the full rpm band. Ive seen that before :fighting: :fighting:
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You will laugh at this Dave, After I finished the one above I started to tune another 2005 mk5 Gti which already had a stage2+ from another tuner. I read the file off and open in ols and found it to be the exact same map as the motech map but with the LDR raised by another 20% and the n75 I reg maxed to 100%.
N75 at 100% for the full rpm band. Ive seen that before :fighting: :fighting:
Could be the same tuner Sy :evilgrin:
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Email sent for a copy of the map :happy2:
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Glad R-Tech have done another great job :happy2:
I personally wouldn't go anywhere else :notworthy:
Will be heading back there for a health check and linear throttle map at some point in the near future :wink:
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Email sent for a copy of the map :happy2:
Sent :happy2:
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Recieved, will take a look on monday. Too busy playing with
proper carsBMW's at present
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Recieved, will take a look on monday. Too busy playing with proper carsBMW's at present
:popcornsoda: lol
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now i've got my HPFP on i absolutely cannot wait until i have a chance to leave the car at R-Tech
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Email sent for a copy of the map :happy2:
Sent :happy2:
Nick you have a PM re a similar issue I would like to try and solve with yourselves.
Thanks.
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You will laugh at this Dave, After I finished the one above I started to tune another 2005 mk5 Gti which already had a stage2+ from another tuner. I read the file off and open in ols and found it to be the exact same map as the motech map but with the LDR raised by another 20% and the n75 I reg maxed to 100%.
N75 at 100% for the full rpm band. Ive seen that before :fighting: :fighting:
Could be the same tuner Sy :evilgrin:
I had a Shark map on my K03 car, which dwelled horribly on an upchange. I got nowhere with a resolution of that map, so took the hit and went for a straightforward local option and now run Revo software. Not a hint of a problem with that now on the car.
From logging the MAF the revo map appears to make much more power, especially in the mid-range. I'm not saying Revo is the be all and end all, just that in my case the problem was clearly demonstrated to be the Shark software.
:wink:
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Great thread, this. :happy2: