MK5 Golf GTI
General => Product Reviews => Topic started by: RedRobin on June 02, 2012, 11:23:09 pm
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WHAT ARE THEY?
The XB is a structural cross brace added to a car to increase body rigidity and the UB is an underbody chassis stiffener, both specifically designed and produced for a variety of hatchback bodies such as VW Golfs, R32's, and some of the Audi range. The producer Bruce Levin, a professional architect and product designer, continues to develop applications for different car versions where possible. But are either of these products something you really need?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_black_red.jpg&hash=0387077c0dae75ee82765febcd14caaf9eebeabb)
^ UNIbrace XB - Both XB and UB products are available in red or black.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FUNIbrace_quality.jpg&hash=605bcdb56a1993a945356223be9bbdbe5a6e4964)
^ Product quality is beyond any question - Absolutely faultless! You can tell how well the products have been considered and that this reflects the standards of a professional designer.
The UNIbrace XB is constructed of super strong 6061-T heat treated 0.187 inch (~4.75 mm) aluminium ('aloooominum' if you are American!) with high temperature automotive powdercoating. The UNIbrace UB is slightly thicker at 0.25 inch (~6.35 mm). They are waterjet cut and CNC bent. In other words, they are 'the biz', and also 'the shiz'!
WHY INSTALL A UNIBRACE XB?
A hatchback car body is inherently an open box and consequently a potentially weak structure. Volkswagen have made improvements from generation to generation but the Golf platform is primarily designed to meet the requirements of their general market which is aimed at a more pedestrian consumer than the typical enthusiast who will be reading this review. The phrase "Designed by German Craftsmen and Modified by Mad Englishmen" comes to mind - In this case it's a Mad American.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FpreXB_1864.jpg&hash=7ff9eec66da64585c8a6af8f5d59f1c4fc3d4c83)
There is more body distortion in such an open box hatchback structure than may be initially obvious. I have heard some folks say that the rear seats contribute to reducing the distortion but, as the following photo shows, the bench seat is attached to the floor pan and the seat backs are split in two separate units. So, although I'm not a structural engineer, I believe that any claimed contribution by the seat units is pretty insignificant.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2Fstructure_002.jpg&hash=44b04519ee694dde3ccded85e0906e6cb4e9c1c0)
WHY INSTALL A UNIBRACE UB?
The ex factory car merely has two independent thin aluminium straps across the exhaust pipe 'tunnel' fitted at some distance apart. The UNIbrace UB uses the same fixing points but is a shaped latticework brace which structurally accommodates all four fixing points instead of just two independent pairs. The result is a stiffer chassis, reducing twist, and hence advantages to suspension and handling when driving enthusiastically. And when I say "enthusiastically" I do not mean "irresponsibly".
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FUB_black_installed.jpg&hash=d07292fe353c78e94e2cda43fa0ddbef199e90a3)
^ Black UB installed.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FUB_red_flipped.jpg&hash=0d5287e41b885f7b2ac358c2848d583b176495cb)
When I showed him a photo of the UNIbrace UB, a friend in the motorsport industry described it as "A solid piece of kit, somewhere between a sump guard, a grass shield, and a piece of undercar jewellery".
Okay, so that's the simple theory of how they work in layman's terms but how do they feel to drive? What do they contribute to the enjoyment of driving?
THE XB DRIVING EXPERIENCE:
I decided to fit the XB first, feel what that contributes, and then add the UB a week later and then report how their combination feels to drive. So the 'The XB + UB Driving Experience' info is added later.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FpostXB_1869.jpg&hash=f5d890ff9e051b43b357475782dbbc39101a4d96)
Immediately following installation I set off on a pre-planned route which takes in a variety of roads which I am very familiar with. I always do this when testing so that my shared opinions and findings might be as realistic as possible by virtue of comparison. I think it's very important to fight the placebo effect and euphoria of a new toy. If you are not as objective as possible it can be rather like having a new girlfriend in that she always appears to be absolutely perfect to begin with! To be non-sexist I have no doubt that the same applies to a new boyfriend.
The first section is an A-road with a long sweeping uphill to a fast bend and then heavy-ish braking flattening to a 5-junction roundabout. To my horror, as I accelerated up the hill I became aware of very loud road noise and an occasional short zingy vibration sound. I was driving with both my back seats folded down. It sounded as if the XB was transmitting undesirable sounds but on taking the B-road off the roundabout the sounds had disappeared. [I'm very glad to say that I have since tested for unwanted sounds on the same stretch of road and discovered that the resonance problem was the road surface of one lane at high speed]. I was immediately aware of how very flatly planted she felt on that first roundabout and so felt confident to throw the car at the first sharp right hander on the B-road somewhat harder than usual. A couple more bends, one with an awkward camber and I was grinning from ear to ear.
That particular B-road section is 15 miles of roller coaster bends and ups and downs and consequently a perfect workout of suspension and handling. Something which I didn't expect and don't quite understand is how the steering now feels more direct - I might have expected that behaviour from the UB rather than the XB. In fact, the XB feels as if it is doing more than effecting the rear part of the car where it is located. With KW V3's set up by Volkswagen Racing, Whiteline Anti Lift Kit, Eibach anti-roll bars, OZ lightweight wheels, and Quaife diff, my car has always felt well planted and I was really doubtful and apprehensive about how it might be improved. It would be easy to think that the XB is reducing body roll but it's more about the transfer of physical energy. The difference is that I now realise that the car body was absorbing much of the stresses or energy but now the suspension itself is more independently absorbing the energy and leaving the chassis feeling like it's absolutely horizontally flat and as if on rails! Overall, pushing the car hard feels more settled and confidence inspiring.
After a few days of some more 'testing' of the XB on a particularly fast stretch of dual carriageway with rises and kinks and therefore subjecting the car's body to flex: Whereas my car always feels safe through there, it does have a tendency to show what I can best describe as 'nervousness' - The car stays on course but there are small amounts of movement which test my determination and are somewhat exhilerating! However, as now expected with the XB, all that 'nervousness' has disappeared and it feels rock steady at these high speed kinks even when overtaking through them when it is obviously important to stay in lane and not take the other car's door handles off! It's a short stretch of only about half a mile but one which is very satisfying to attack.
What is left for the UB to bring to the party, I wonder?
THE UB DRIVING EXPERIENCE:
In order to better assess the UB on its own I temporarily removed the XB which is easy to do and takes less than 10 minutes (just! when you fit the Allen bolts back into the nutserts), and drove about 90 miles to JKM to have my UB fitted. I immediately noticed the difference in going back to 'standard' - The car felt slightly fidgety again although actual roadholding was not impaired.
Immediately after leaving JKM and of course being hyper aware of the UB I noticed that I could feel any road surface undulations and imperfections though not in a harsh way. But, compared with the XB the feel through the seat of my pants is not as comfortable when solely the UB is fitted. It's not uncomfortable but you can easily understand why Volkswagen haven't stiffened the underside to the extent that the UNIbrace UB does. It becomes more comfortable at speeds over 30 mph and at very high speed. At very high speed, the UB feels as if it adds more stability and stiffness than just with the XB fitted.
To date I have driven just over 200 miles with only the UB and over all types of roads including my usual B-road 'test route'. This included a mile of speed bumps visiting a friend. To my surprise the raised pairs of pad-style speed bumps seemed less intrusive than when I have been over the same ones before any UNIbraces were fitted. I drive over very slow with my nearside over the pads and my offside in the normal road level area. At speed on a sudden hump on my 'test route' B-road the UB seemed to encourage the car to take off more easily and it kicked in the ESP.
Neither the XB nor the UB do anything other than stiffen the body rather like a roll-cage does but without offering the protection (or making a mess of a car interior). All I have been able to do is assess the UNIbraces by how they feel to drive with and it needs a conscious effort to keep the ever seductive Miss Placebo at bay.
If I were to choose only the XB or only the UB, I would choose the XB. It feels as if it provides a tiny bit more noticeable stiffness and yet more comfort, perhaps because the XB is located behind you and not underneath your seat. However, the UB delivers a very strong sense of being well planted when braking very hard in a straight line - It all feels absolutely rigid as if the floor you are sitting on is utterly solid! In fact, if you dial your brain into it, you can easily feel where the UB is providing stiffness. Additionally, the car with UB fitted seems to go very directly wherever you point it, so turn-in feels particularly direct even in the wet. Of course, this works very well in tandem with my Quaife diff.
THE XB + UB DRIVING EXPERIENCE:
The designer Bruce says that if together the UNIbrace XB + UNIbrace UB equates to 100% stiffness, then the XB is responsible for 60-65% and the UB is responsible for 35-40% of the stiffness. He has designed them to compliment each other but they will each add to your spirited driving enjoyment if only one is fitted.
If you tune your senses into the feel of your car while driving hard, the XB on its own very noticeably stiffens the 'box' of the car body whereas the UB on its own noticeably (but not quite as much as the XB) stiffens the flat 'platform' of the car body. When the XB and UB are both fitted together the feel of your car becomes very noticeably solid and extremely well planted as if on rails! Instead of feeling how each of the XB and UB stiffen the car when fitted alone, stiff body plus stiff platform = solid car overall.
I've just returned from another spirited drive on my roller-coaster B-road test route and wow! the car feels not so much stiff but very solid. Even driving round a 90-degree turn at 10-15 mph feels very positive and the car goes exactly where you point it. The UNIbraces open up more scope for the Quaife diff and, of course, the suspension. I have yet to explore the car's limits and think that this should only be done in the right environment and conditions - A trackday with plenty of run off would be ideal.
ALTERNATIVES:
The alternatives for the XB are single bar, usually tubular, strut braces but they will lack the structural advantages of UNIbrace's lattice girder which acts and spreads loading across a wider area. I know of no alternative for the UB. Otherwise, a tubular roll-cage would do the same and very much more but involves seriously compromising your car interior. I have looked into removable roll-cages and they aren't really very practical for the Golf bodies. Of course, a roll-cage has many safety advantages as well but UNIbrace have strictly not designed their products as an alternative option to a roll-cage.
Here are some other alternatives to the UB but they have totally missed the point that UNIbrace Bruce has understood so well and that's the structural 'X' factor:
http://www.summit-racing.eu/volkswagen/golf.html
And here is another under brace which I am waiting for information on:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2Funderbrace.jpg&hash=5c635b03dfe5258436fd1df9fb1c0240d6e4d8bd)
INSURANCE IMPLICATIONS:
As with ALL mods it is absolutely imperative to inform your insurer. In my case with Greenlight, there are absolutely no insurance implications whatsoever. As specialist brokers who truly understand modding and performance cars, they contacted the insurer Highway while I was on the phone and, dare I say, gave me the green light! [Ho ho ho! he laughed in a Frank Bruno voice]. However, some insurers have a negative view about such mods and might not recognise that it's not a roll-cage! If in doubt, check first.
SOURCE:
Direct from UNIbrace in America. Bruce has offered Group Buys on appropriete internet car forums but it's not often. The XB and UB can be bought separately.
Visit their website or contact for up-to-date prices : - http://www.unibrace.com/frameset.html
Be warned that USPS were not, in my experience, as efficient and fast as I expected them to be by being American. As usual, UK HM Customs took their time and ParcelForce were a farce - I still haven't received snail-mailed notification of the tax to pay, plus their system took the wrong amount when I phoned them with my parcel number and I am having to reclaim.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2Fvatcharges.jpg&hash=3d7c29c5bab6ffbd6d368a81aa44039d6335f85a)
Both UNIbrace products were extremely well packaged and Bruce kept in direct and regular email contact - An excellent service from him but let down in the door-to-door process.
XB INSTALLATION:
Being very methodical and applying patience is the key. I don't own the tools, workshop, or have the expertise to do mechanics etc myself so I went to my trusted VW dealer's affiliated bodyshop where they have previously fitted my DRL's, carbon bonnet, and recently wings. I was present for the last hour of installation. It took 3.5 hours and not 1.5 - 2 hours as UNIbrace suggest. This was as a result of working steadily but carefully and following the excellent installation instructions which UNIbrace provide online. The fitter, Lambretta enthusiast John, enjoyed the job and said he was impressed by the quality. UNIbrace can supply a Nutsert tool at extra cost but my bodyshop already had such tools.
It is important of course to tighten the fixings to the correctly advised torque values in all instances.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2Ftool_004.jpg&hash=1ecff1d3af48cd29cb419a8faa01b2fd1a4a971b)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_1865.jpg&hash=61c4a26bb4e4a99b8725ae328ffa0a568c1013f7)
After installing the Nutsert anchoring points, the XB can easily be taken in and out of the car via 4 Allen key bolts - A job which takes less than 5 minutes:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_fix_1903.jpg&hash=4744d5f24c208595007e0f1d0fc598a488719ff4)
Allen key size 5. Hand tighten plus a quarter turn taking care to seat the threads properly. Attach diagonals first and do not tighten any until all are seated properly.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_fix_1895.jpg&hash=577e7765aa42edb9e3049a54312ae830401779d1)
UB INSTALLATION:
Very easy but I went to JKM and they can also adjust my suspension if needed. This video shows the UB installation extremely well indeed:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FOEM_braces_1965.jpg&hash=5d0d7a056a0d923cf8b6810144aa6716ee9a7837)
^ Before UB installation - Just two OEM lightweight aluminium independent flimsy straps across the exhaust pipe tunnel.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FUB_1971.jpg&hash=1a47232912c20fe2a244d9fca9f15b41a3ccd43f)
^ After UB installation - An aircraft industry standard aluminium lattice brace.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FOEM_lambda_1963.jpg&hash=1987e55a9ed23c38ba8c1c7a0296334b5540bf63)
^ Before UB installation - Post-cat lambda sensor cable hanging loose.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FUB_lambda_1968.jpg&hash=8f7175a36f3ac0ed84d8b607ed0db318309b93e2)
^ After UB installation - Post-cat lambda sensor cable tied to UB for protection. My ground clearance is only 95 mm.
PLUS POINTS:
- Very high standard of design, manufacture, and finish - Looks in keeping with the car.
- Lightweight - XB: 6 lb / 2.7 kg. UB: 7 lb / 3 kg. But stiff without any flex.
- Significantly improves the feel of the car when driving hard by stiffening the chassis/body.
- Once mounted, the XB can be easily taken in and out with only 4 Allen key fixings - A process which takes no more than 4-5 minutes.
- An added bonus of the XB, especially on the 5-door Golf, is as a restrainer of loaded goods on the sloping seat backs when folded down.
- An extra added bonus is that with the parcel shelf removed, you can fit 4 track alloys with tyres in the boot like a Swiss Roll and the XB will restrain them.
- The XB also serves to provide a back for a 'luggage net' when the seats are folded down.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_1880.jpg&hash=6098ec816ce183bd6e0dae08d8f05555f0485d8b)
- The XB has a bonus advantage of providing secure anchorage for awkward loads such as a dining chair.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_chair_1961.jpg&hash=3b313493203530df19f8ce04e994616c89decf65)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_1879.jpg&hash=965854cbaafb56fa0fbbd44850bde8c956b5f8ff)
MINUS POINTS:
- The XB might reduce or restrict the ease of loading certain shaped goods. But it can be easily removed temporarily if necessary.
- Someone totally unfamiliar with braces might wonder what the heck the XB is and think of it as an unsightly loading restriction. But they obviously don't enjoy driving as much as most of us enthusiasts do!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_1890.jpg&hash=045c3128e3ac355c2f6c2e499fd10e1ac9a60478)
XB SUMMARY:
At this stage until my UB is fitted I can only offer an opinion on the UNIbrace XB. Well, is it a must-have? - If you do trackdays I think it is a must-have. If you only do fast-road it's very worthwhile and not a must-have but a joy-to-have. Your car doesn't know whether it's on a road or a track and behaves totally reactively to conditions and how it's being driven. So, whenever you can grab the opportunities to responsibly drive enthusiastically on the road, the XB puts an extra grin on your face. I have no experience of how it performs on a car with standard suspension but I would expect it to improve things simply because of the ex-factory car's physical structure. When coupled with aftermarket good suspension etc it potentially adds significantly to the package of aftermarket components. It helps driving the GTI feel closer to a purpose-built sports car and that, Ladies and Gentlemen, should put an extra grin on your face.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_lightweight_1858.jpg&hash=0400c8ba4060bc0d09f7fe7be698e5b5552927e0)
XB + UB CONCLUSION:
Are the UNIbraces a mod you need? - If all you do is a relatively dull commute or mostly motorways, then the answer is no. But if you tend to grab opportunities to drive enthusiastically on twisty roads or do any trackdays, then the answer is a most definite and resounding YES !! And to get the most out of it, buy and fit both XB and UB. I expect that what suspension and other handling mods you have will add to the benefit. My car now feels even more surefooted and stable.
As with all mods for the Mk5 GTI and its stable mates, you don't actually need them but they do further enhance your car if you are a spirited driver.
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An excellent review Robin. :congrats:
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Great review, looking forward to the final instalment in due course.
Only trouble is I'm really regretting not partaking of this GB, the XB looks a great & simple design but appears really very effective.
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A very comprehensive and detailed review there Robin... simply superb! :notworthy:
I am really pleased that you're happy with the XB and the effects it has on the chassis, and that these are significant enough for you to notice a difference. It's always difficult to express how a product makes a car feel, but you have clearly done this, and echos very much the similar thoughts I had when I fitted my first one to my Mk5 R32 which had a similar suspension set up to your car.
I haven't had a chance to enthusiastically drive my car yet, but on the short journey to a fete yesterday, even with my standard suspension(currently) I could feel it more direct and planted. :happy2:
Have you noticed a reduction in creaks/rattles at all? Also a sign that the chassis is working stiffer...
Think it looks absolutely fabulous in Red on your car btw, very purposeful. For track days I would suggest removing the rear seats completely, did you feel how much they weigh :wink:
I'm personally chuffed that you went for both items on a product briefing from my self, as I know you were fvery scepticle, and evn more chuffed you've had a chance to feel first hand the benefits.
Would like to say that Bruce, rarely offers Group Buys, think the last UK one was 2009. And if there's ever to be any more, it will need to be managed properly, which I'd be happy to do again, but it was alot of hard work. Just hope everyone else is as pleased as you are.
Thank you for an excellent review, and looked forward to the UB installment, when will this be fitted?
Cheers,
Dominic
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^^^^
Cheers, Dom. And Thank You once more for organising the recent Group Buy - Without you I wouldn't have this extra grin! I have now edited my review to correct the Group Buy information.
I really was very sceptical indeed about the UNIbrace products - One very highly respected friend (on this forum) had had a XB on his highly modified Ed30 and he didn't think it was worthwhile for road use but, as I wrote in my review, the car never knows where she is and reacts and responds accordingly. Without driving dangerously or irresponsibly it really is possible to have great fun driving enthusiastically, though I am lucky with many of the roads in my neck of the woods. Another good friend has one on his Mk4 R32 and purposely played it down until I had fitted mine and then when we spoke afterwards he then told me how good he thinks they are! He said he didn't want to influence me into expecting too much - He's a movie buff and does the same when I ask him about a film. If he doesn't says it isn't any good then I know it's probably quite good.
So far, I have been focussing on handling and enjoying the 'on rails' feel so much that I haven't dialled my brain into the minor creaks n rattles yet! I plan to have another test drive very soon when the roads are dry and in the early morning with less traffic.
I'll be phoning VWR on Wednesday to arrange fitting the UB. As always it'll be a case of only going there when they next have a break from their busy racing preps - I'm flexible that way and they always appreciate that and give me 100% attention plus.
I nearly didn't go for the UB as well but what swayed me was both Bruce's response to my question (which you relayed) about the XB + UB being complimentary, and that USAF pilot's comments on the forum across the pond whose opinions I respect.
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Excellent review as always Robin.
Would you try the UB without the XB fitted to see if that makes a difference too?
Take the XB back off again to see if the car is worse without it.
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Excellent review as always Robin.
Would you try the UB without the XB fitted to see if that makes a difference too?
Take the XB back off again to see if the car is worse without it.
....Duh, Robin! Why didn't I think of that!? The XB would be easy for me to take on and off. So, all in due course, will do and thanks for the idea :drinking: I must be getting old :grin:
So, in due course I'll revise my review to include XB solo (as currently), XB + UB, and UB solo :happy2: and all on my same test route - It's a ~40-mile lap.
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Fantastic review Robin :congrats: :congrats:
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Great review RR - I'm regretting not buying one now...
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Great review RR - I'm regretting not buying one now...
....Just tell yourself that if you had bought one it might then prompt you further down that slippery slope and, based on your mods list in your sig, you would then want to spend hundreds of pounds if not more than a thousand on springs and dampers or coilovers.
I always try my hardest to be objective when I write a review but I guess that having carefully assessed a product in depth pre purchase and then bought, it's much more likely to be something I feel enthusiastic about. Still, if there hadn't been such a marked difference so instantly felt with the addition of the XB, I would have said so and possibly offered it for sale. The other aspect too is what suits one driver may not be liked by another - I can only share how I feel individually and how it suits my particular car or not.
It remains to be seen what I think about the UB from a driving point of view - Its quality as an object is beyond question. It's too good to hide away under the car!
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awesome as usual Red Leader :notworthy:
any insurance implications? typically roll cage like products are despised by insurance companies, this isnt, so Id hope its treated like other mods.
Be good if they could design it with a logo embedded somewhere (retaining structural integrity), that would be very cool (but not necessary :signLOL:)
excellent
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^^^^
Good point about the insurance implications, John :drinking: - I'll add that to my review original.
But to answer separately, in my case with Greenlight, absolutely no insurance implications whatsoever. As specialist brokers who truly understand modding and performance cars, they contacted the insurer Highway while I was on the phone and, dare I say, gave me the green light! [Ho ho ho! he laughed in a Frank Bruno voice].
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Great review, i always head to your reviews and re-read them Robin if debating a mod you have tried.
I really need to see if can find the cash for Dom's UB and then I would be trying that in isolation. If i did buy the UB, how would I know if I need spacers or not before trying to fit? I have a Pipewerx full tbe so have know idea how that differs to the Milltek at the point of fitment?
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Great review, i always head to your reviews and re-read them Robin if debating a mod you have tried.
I really need to see if can find the cash for Dom's UB and then I would be trying that in isolation. If i did buy the UB, how would I know if I need spacers or not before trying to fit? I have a Pipewerx full tbe so have know idea how that differs to the Milltek at the point of fitment?
....Hey, thanks, berg! :drinking:
Reading your mods list in your sig, Bilstein, Wavetrac diff, etc etc etc, it could be the missing piece to perfection. But by all accounts I've read so far, plus the designer Bruce's statement, the XB is what adds most: 60-65% of the UNIbraces benefit he said.
I have yet to fit my UB and temporarily remove my XB, so I can't currently add any opinions on just having the UB. Reading comments/reviews by others might help.
UB now and possibly XB later?
On the question of UB exhaust clearance, is Dom including spacers in his sale? If not, and if I don't need mine they'll be unused and available to buy in a couple of weeks.
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On the question of UB exhaust clearance, is Dom including spacers in his sale? If not, and if I don't need mine they'll be unused and available to buy in a couple of weeks.
I think you'll be needing yours RR (in Kregeil's experience) seeing you have a Milltek.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,46534.msg559514.html#msg559514
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great write up Robin as usual!
I needed spacers on UB for my full milltek exhaust to get enough clearance!
Paul
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You'll need to check those periodically, as I recall some folks using the extended studs experienced snapping/bending.
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great write up Robin as usual!
I needed spacers on UB for my full milltek exhaust to get enough clearance!
Paul
....Milltek Resonated or Non-Res version, Paul?
Clearance problem on your Milltek downpipe?
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Robin, could you please let us know how long and how much effort it takes for you to remove the XB?
This something I could have been interested in but I could easily need the rear space unexpectedly. I would have liked some kind of "quick" removal system that could be done by hands eg leave in two locking bases and then the main XB could be lifted in/out within seconds.
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great write up Robin as usual!
I needed spacers on UB for my full milltek exhaust to get enough clearance!
Paul
....Milltek Resonated or Non-Res version, Paul?
Clearance problem on your Milltek downpipe?
I have non resonated version Robin!
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Robin, could you please let us know how long and how much effort it takes for you to remove the XB?
This something I could have been interested in but I could easily need the rear space unexpectedly. I would have liked some kind of "quick" removal system that could be done by hands eg leave in two locking bases and then the main XB could be lifted in/out within seconds.
....Will do, Jas. I'll actually do it when I next get the car out in the next couple of days and post about it.
I had a phone chat earlier today with my BIALI mate Dan who has the Mk4 R32 with a XB and he says it's easy and just a matter of 4 Allen key bolts.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_fix_1883.jpg&hash=3b878d4a2f40958bb65cf66854ca4ee144da0e24)
I think it will take a 3-4 minutes rather than seconds. Always best to only loosely attach by diagonals first and only tighten when all 4 corners are properly seated. The XB itself is easy to handle by one person as it only weighs 6 lb.
If the XB was secured by a method only taking seconds, it would most likely have its stiffening function very compromised.
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I needed spacers on UB for my full milltek exhaust to get enough clearance!
Paul
....Milltek Resonated or Non-Res version, Paul?
Clearance problem on your Milltek downpipe?
I have non resonated version Robin!
....Sorry Paul - I hadn't read your detailed list of mods in your sig. So it's the Milltek downpipe which gave the clearance issue.
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You'll need to check those periodically, as I recall some folks using the extended studs experienced snapping/bending.
....That's not very reassuring - I need to look into this.
EDIT:
I think that most of this will be down to people over tightening the stud bolts and shear is unlikely in the form that the latest UNIbrace spacers have been designed. Hand tighten plus another quarter is what I would expect as best practice unless a specific torque is instructed.
Meanwhile, my research suggests that by UNIbrace using large plate spacers the loads are spread and without subjecting everyone to a long physics lesson, forces on the studs are axial rather than shear.
But I will ask Bruce to comment here and hopefully reassure us.
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So without reading all the pages of the GB did Bruce give you options to buy spacers and some of you have and some haven't? No point buying them if you dont need them, but then also bit frustrating if you go to fit your UB and find that you then have to order additional spacers and wait for UNibraces to send them over!
How much are the spacers because most people fitting these will have a Milltek/Pipewerx/BCS/Blueflame I guess.
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Spacers are $35 as per the website. :smiley:
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So without reading all the pages of the GB did Bruce give you options to buy spacers and some of you have and some haven't? No point buying them if you dont need them, but then also bit frustrating if you go to fit your UB and find that you then have to order additional spacers and wait for UNibraces to send them over!
How much are the spacers because most people fitting these will have a Milltek/Pipewerx/BCS/Blueflame I guess.
....Yes, Bruce via Dom gave us all the option to buy spacers as an extra. I bought a spacers set just in case and so to reduce hassle getting them later - It's a round trip of 340 miles for me to VWR.
As you rightly suggest, most folks going for the UNIbrace mods will already have performance mods and hence a high-flow performance exhaust system. Like a Quaife (or similar) diff, A UNIbrace only comes into play such that you are more aware of it when you are driving enthusiastically.
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Spacers are $35 as per the website. :smiley:
not bad then
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Hello Robin,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. This weekend was my first non seven day work week in over two months — a much needed rest!
Thanks for a very thorough and well documented review! A few small clarifications and comments:
1. The UNIbrace XB is .187" thk. Only the UNIbrace UB is .25".
2. Was the additional sound resonance you were hearing only when the rear seats were folded down? This would make more sense as the entire hatch then becomes a resonance chamber.
3. The comments that were referred to about the deep nuts or studs breaking have only been when people over torque the nuts. The instructions are very clear: "snug the nuts up, then another 1/4 turn with a 6-8" long rachet." I would also add that blue loctite can also be of benefit. This will stop the nuts from backing off.
4. Your analysis of the spacers and resultant forces on the studs is correct. Many people assume that since the studs look thin that they are not strong. This is not true! Steel is very strong in tension! The UNIbrace UB is very stiff. If the brace is properly positioned and the nuts properly torqued. The resulting forces on the studs is as as you mentioned, in tension.
5. Generally, most exhausts do not need the spacer kit. The general guideline is that if there is a resonator in the mid pipe and it is not larger than 4"Ø you will likely not need the spacer/deep nut kit. From my experience to date only the base non turbo Golf, the UR downpipe with it's HUGE tilted elliptical resonators and a MTM for the Golf R are the only ones that absolutely required the kit. In the US not that many people use the full Milltek, so this may also have to be added to the list. The spacer kit is rather inexpensive so if in doubt it is a useful insurance policy.
Hope this answers people's questions.
Best,
Bruce
....Hi Bruce and many thanks for your clarifications and information - My original review post has now been amended accordingly.
Although the UB is inevitably being discussed, I haven't fitted and experienced the UNIbrace UB yet and so my review is currently incomplete but will be updated and expanded in due course.
Re your point 2 on additional sound resonance, to date I have only tested the UNIbrace XB with both seats down. I now need to go back to that same stretch of road and test the XB with one seat up and then both seats up. I already know that I never experience any resonance with my seats down and no XB fitted. If my tests/trials result in resonance whenever the seats are down, then it will be reasonable to deduce that the XB acts to transfer sounds in a similar way to how aftermarket engine mounts do. In basic terms, sound is vibration and so what we would be hearing is, in a sense, the UNIbrace XB doing its job of transferring energy > vibration > sound.
I personally enjoy and love the Grrrrr sounds from my VWR engine mounts but the sound I heard from the XB was very unexpected and not a pleasant surprise at all - I would have to include it in my list of minus points. But l will firstly have breakfast and go off and test the subject on the same stretch of road (easy with a roundabout at each end) before making judgements and writing more.
It goes without saying that your time and input here is greatly appreciated by all, not just by myself :happy2:
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There's some great points and discussion going on here...
Everything has its on natural frequency, maybe the road surface vibrated the car at the unibraces natural frequency, resonance... It will certainly be interested to see when driving the same road, if it happens again, and if varying speed affects the outcome...
Also if you are wanting to feel UB seperately, I would remove Xb, so you can remind yourself how it all feels without it, then add UB, obtain impressions on how it makes the car feel, then add the Xb on top for the full effect...
Look forward to these updates...
Dom
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There's some great points and discussion going on here...
Everything has its on natural frequency, maybe the road surface vibrated the car at the unibraces natural frequency, resonance... It will certainly be interested to see when driving the same road, if it happens again, and if varying speed affects the outcome...
Also if you are wanting to feel UB seperately, I would remove Xb, so you can remind yourself how it all feels without it, then add UB, obtain impressions on how it makes the car feel, then add the Xb on top for the full effect...
Look forward to these updates...
Dom
....Re standard, UB, XB, comparisons - That's more or less what I plan to do, Dom. Timing depends on when VWR can fit me in.
I have now driven exactly the same road with seats down and the extra sound has gone.
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Hello Robin,
I'm not surprised that there could be some additional noise from the UNIbrace XB as it is tying the car together and like you mention as things get more tightened there is additional noise. However, the way you are describing it seems very unusual to me. Was the cargo net with metal fasteners attached when you had this experience? I'm just trying top figure out where the additional resonance could be coming from. Personally, I wonder that you may not have driven that stretch of road with the seats folded down. This coupled with the UNIbrace XB could be creating new sounds. Looking forward to your further reviews. Bruce
....I went out and tested it this morning, with cargo net still attached, on exactly the same stretch of road and the sound has gone. I have driven that stretch many times in the past with seats down and before having a XB.
I can only think that it may have been some kind of settling in. I also tried to see if similar speed on similar roads induced the sound. I'm very glad to report that the noise, which was a fairly major level, has disappeared. EDIT: I have since discovered that it's the road surface of just one lane of that stretch of road which causes that unpleasant sound.
I have to say that, contrary to expectation, I'm loving the XB effect and think it's exploiting my KW V3 suspension to my benefit. The car even feels more stable when having to change direction more suddenly than preferred - For example, for some kinds of overtakes on a narrow English road.
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*grab a brew
Robin
I was chatting with rectal rooter Janner Sy this morning about my recent Trackday and how the car handled.
He suggests I try a few wet sessions for further experience but I wonder, even though the turn in and grip was amazing on my car (despite my inexperience I felt really happy with it. Perhaps tweaks will be wanted when I get better) if you can go 'too stiff' especially in the wet with my levels of power
:popcornsoda:
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I think I'd be wanting the shell as stiff as possible and the suspension adjustable enough to address the stiffness. I would have to agree with RR that the Xb makes it feel the suspension is working more efficiently...
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What I want is someone to fit it themselves... and follow these instructions.
-------------
Jack the car up from the rear jacking point, ONLY one side (just in front of the rear wheel).
Raise the car so that both rear wheels are off the ground. (car chassis should be under torsion)
Bolt up the front of the UB, and tighten bolts.
Start to bolt up the back of the UB and take photos to show me how much its pulling the chassis into alignment. (or if you have means to measure it then that would be even better)
Then Ill shut up and leave you all alone. :signLOL: :signLOL:
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I would happily show you the alignment of the holes on the Xb, with the car flat one ground and then being jacked... When I get back from east Sussex I will, it's quite interesting... :-)
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I would happily show you the alignment of the holes on the Xb, with the car flat one ground and then being jacked... When I get back from east Sussex I will, it's quite interesting... :-)
The UB... not XB. :happy2:
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I would happily show you the alignment of the holes on the Xb, with the car flat one ground and then being jacked... When I get back from east Sussex I will, it's quite interesting... :-)
The UB... not XB. :happy2:
Apologies... Thought you were a doubter of both systems... :)
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.
I was definitely a doubter of both the XB and UB UNIbraces until some of my questions were answered in the Group Buy thread. The designer Bruce, being an architect and product designer, carried a lot of weight in his answers - I started out in architecture (I was accepted in the internationally acclaimed Architectural Association School in London) and I know that such training goes further than the usual engineering. In other words, as a product designed by an architect who is also a performance car enthusiast, it stood more than just a chance of working well. One, or two, word posts on car forums by folks who are impressed but don't describe in some detail why they think a product is "awesome" etc, don't cut it with me.
The difference the UNIbrace XB makes to my car in the driving experience is equivalent to that felt when adding the Quaife diff. I think that the Quaife is a far more valuable mod to our FWD cars but I'm referring to the degree of difference felt by a mod - You don't become aware of the Quaife (or similar diff) until you are 'on it' and the same is true for the UNIbrace XB.
However, the proof of any pudding is in the eating and I was still prepared to sell on my XB if it hadn't delivered the definable benefits which I have described, as I will be with my UB. It remains to be seen how I find the UB but what I have found in the XB gives me confidence that the UNIbrace UB will also add benefits - I'm now not expecting to be disappointed.
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These braces sound great, and thanks to Robin for another Awesome Review (and the discussions that follow) alot of questions and concerns are answered. :notworthy:
I like the idea of getting stiffer :smiley:
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*grab a brew
Robin
I was chatting with rectal rooter Janner Sy this morning about my recent Trackday and how the car handled.
He suggests I try a few wet sessions for further experience but I wonder, even though the turn in and grip was amazing on my car (despite my inexperience I felt really happy with it. Perhaps tweaks will be wanted when I get better) if you can go 'too stiff' especially in the wet with my levels of power
:popcornsoda:
....I think that someone like SteveP or tony_danza will be better qualified to answer your question as they have much more track experience - Perhaps start a new thread in the track area of the forum?
However, when it's wet, much comes down to grip and consequently appropriate tyres. When the car chassis/body is stiffer (such as with a roll-cage) it allows the suspension to do more of the work it's designed to do. The UNIbraces are not alternatives for a roll-cage but they contribute significantly to stiffness. We all know that more stiffness = more fun :wink: :evilgrin:
The best mod of all you can do is driver training aka remapping your brain. :happy2:
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Any updates guys?
....I'm removing my XB next week so I'll remind myself what standard is like before fitting the UB next Thursday 14th.
After experiencing what the UB feels like to drive on its own for a bit I'll add to my review's original post accordingly.
I'll then add my XB to the already fitted UB, experience that and then further add to my review accordingly.
Meanwhile, other folks comments on their experiences with UNIbraces would be good to hear. :happy2:
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Fitted the UB this morning. :happy2:
Went from this:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aibrahim.co.uk%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=a11ee06f7a13c418e534a711bdc2fd0b543a718a)
To this:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aibrahim.co.uk%2Funibrace1.jpg&hash=bb6b70bbb22e360d000dd49b4bbdfecbd1f04c6a)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aibrahim.co.uk%2Funibrace2.jpg&hash=ea27445bb2b95399a96a14ae36eac589985d65fa)
It's too wet to give any objective opinions unfortunately.
btw I have a Milltek TBE and didn't need the spacer kit.
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But yours is non-res correct? Looks good, look forward to your impressions...
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But yours is non-res correct? Looks good, look forward to your impressions...
Nope I have a resonated exhaust.
If you look at this pic you can see the extra resonator on the cat back section at the far left.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aibrahim.co.uk%2Funibrace1.jpg&hash=bb6b70bbb22e360d000dd49b4bbdfecbd1f04c6a)
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Ahhh I didn't realise that was the position ofthe res box... Nice one, looks great!
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Fitted the UB this morning. :happy2:
btw I have a Milltek TBE and didn't need the spacer kit.
....That's helpful to know :happy2:
I have a custom round box on the exhaust pipe because there's so little material inside my back box, so I might still need my spacers - We'll see next Thursday 14th.
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.
Did some more 'testing' of the XB today on a particularly fast stretch of dual carriageway which you can carry a lot of speed into with rises and kinks and therefore subjecting the car's body to flex. Whereas my car always feels safe through there, it does have a tendency to show what I can best describe as 'nervousness' - The car stays on course but there are small amounts of movement which test my determination and are somewhat exhilerating! However, as now expected with the XB, all that 'nervousness' has disappeared and it feels rock steady at these high speed kinks even when overtaking through them when it is obviously important to stay in lane and not take the other car's door handles off! It's a short stretch of only about three quarters of a mile but one which is very satisfying to attack.
What is left for the UB to bring to the party, I wonder?
I wish I had bought an XB a while ago when there was an opportunity but I'm enjoying its definite benefits now. I now don't understand those who say it's not of much benefit.
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Nice one Robin! :happy2: Really glad you are feeling the benefits of the XB... I am also loving mine, even on standard suspension, it feels even more planted and stable and turns in so much more precise...
When can I say I told you so...
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When can I say I told you so...
....Whenever you like! :happy2:
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.
What I am deducing from further spirited driving with the XB is that the roadholding itself isn't necessarily greatly improved but that the stability and feedback is greatly improved and even more driving enjoyment is gained from my already good suspension setup.
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Robin, if you're not nut locking your xb in place it would be worth getting a T-Handle allen key, and periodically checking the tightness of the bolts... Plus the t-handle allen key is the quickest tool to use if you need to remove so good to have in the glovebox... :happy2:
Anymore reviews from other parties?
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Robin, if you're not nut locking your xb in place it would be worth getting a T-Handle allen key, and periodically checking the tightness of the bolts... Plus the t-handle allen key is the quickest tool to use if you need to remove so good to have in the glovebox... :happy2:
....Are you recommending I use different fixings (nuts?) instead of the flush Allen fixings supplied? If not flush, won't they foul the back of the seats when they are up?
Or are you saying that an Allen key T-handle tool would be better than this ratchet tool which I keep in the car anyway to use on my engine cover?:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_fix_1895.jpg&hash=577e7765aa42edb9e3049a54312ae830401779d1)
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Robin, if you're not nut locking your xb in place it would be worth getting a T-Handle allen key, and periodically checking the tightness of the bolts... Plus the t-handle allen key is the quickest tool to use if you need to remove so good to have in the glovebox... :happy2:
....Are you recommending I use different fixings (nuts?) instead of the flush Allen fixings supplied? If not flush, won't they foul the back of the seats when they are up?
Or are you saying that an Allen key T-handle tool would be better than this ratchet tool which I keep in the car anyway to use on my engine cover?:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_fix_1895.jpg&hash=577e7765aa42edb9e3049a54312ae830401779d1)
Haha seems you one step ahead of me RR... No, use the fasteners supplied, and that tool looks spot on. Just periodically check the tightnesss if not using thread lock was really my point.... :happy2:
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Been out with the other half this morning so no spirited driving done (so far :evilgrin: ). That being said, there is definitely something tangibly different and better about the car. :happy2:
Firstly the car feels more "solid" while driving so much so that the wife commented the ride was firmer. On the bends it feels more more planted with sharper turn in and that it inspires confidence to drive a little faster.
Bear in mind I only have the UB so going by Robin's review of just the XB, having both XB and UB should make quite a difference in the car's overall handling charactistics.
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^^^^
Thanks, Dom. As Bruce suggests, I can add some Blue Loctite. I am going to use the Blue Loctite on the UB on Thursday anyway.
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^^^^
Thanks, Dom. As Bruce suggests, I can add some Blue Loctite. I am going to use the Blue Loctite on the UB on Thursday anyway.
Yeah just thought I'd mention it as I used some Blue Loctite today and gave mine a final tighten... Thursdays the day huh... Cool!
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Thursdays the day huh... Cool!
....Yup! :party: - I will have driven at least 200 miles on just the UB by the time I get back home on Friday to add to my review here. I shall of course be taking the more 'interesting' route home :driver: I hope it will have stopped raining though!
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Waits once again for impressions of the UB and UB & XB together... :popcornsoda:
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Waits once again for impressions of the UB and UB & XB together... :popcornsoda:
Hope he's kept it on the road whilst testing... :jumping:
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Waits once again for impressions of the UB and UB & XB together... :popcornsoda:
Hope he's kept it on the road whilst testing... :jumping:
Yeah disclaimer - UB & XB does not give you increased amounts of grip to the road or make you an amazing driver... lol
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^^^^
Should be in the next couple of hours. ~90 miles without any UNIbraces followed by just over 200 miles with UB only on many kinds of roads including about 30 in the dark on twisties in the wet etc finishing off on my usual 'test route' B-road rollercoaster near home.
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:popcornsoda:
the suspense is better than going to the pictures! :party:
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:popcornsoda: :grin:
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On the question of UB exhaust clearance, is Dom including spacers in his sale? If not, and if I don't need mine they'll be unused and available to buy in a couple of weeks.
I think you'll be needing yours RR (in Kregeil's experience) seeing you have a Milltek.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,46534.msg559514.html#msg559514
....I didn't need the spacers (and can't remember who was interested in buying mine!):
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FMilltek_backbox_1967.jpg&hash=414f9a69f6415a8d4229966b71ffffcefee1f761)
^ My custom Milltek system has "virtually nothing" in the back box according to Phil Millington and consequently a very small box alongside the petrol tank. So plenty of clearance around the UNIbrace UB where the pipe is straight through without a resonator.
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.
Review now updated to include my thoughts on driving with solely the UNIbrace UB but also with installation text and pics and text revisions/additions throughout.
For example, I discovered when driving it today that the horrendous noise I first experienced and reported with the UNIbrace XB was purely down to the road surface of one lane - I experienced it again but only in that same lane with the UNIbrace UB today.
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RR,
It was me who thought I might need your spacers, as I have the UB.
But Bacillus seems to have shown the way forward and it looks like I'll not need spacers as I have the same Resonated Milltek he's got.
Really fancy an XB now and really must get round to emailing Bruce to discuss options, as I missed out on the group buy, silly boy.
Only XB issue for me will be having to move my amp, which sits attached to the back of the rear seat, sure that's certainly possible though.
Your review has shown me the right path..and it's got two Unibraces on it.
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RR,
It was me who thought I might need your spacers, as I have the UB.
But Bacillus seems to have shown the way forward and it looks like I'll not need spacers as I have the same Resonated Milltek he's got.
....Ah yes, I remember now. No problem. :happy2:
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i need a XB in my life
But ive got a Leon :sad1:
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i need a XB in my life
But ive got a Leon :sad1:
You could buy one and store it in the boot... :evilgrin:
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i need a XB in my life
But ive got a Leon :sad1:
You could buy one and store it in the boot... :evilgrin:
was hoping somebody who lives local would have one then we could test fit it to the leon to see if it would fit
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was hoping somebody who lives local would have one then we could test fit it to the leon to see if it would fit
Assuming the Leon install would be like the Golf's, you'll have to remove your back seat and the carpet covering to get to the metal area where the nutserts would have to be installed.
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was hoping somebody who lives local would have one then we could test fit it to the leon to see if it would fit
I like that idea. :)
Fish (who also drives badly a leon)
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was hoping somebody who lives local would have one then we could test fit it to the leon to see if it would fit
Assuming the Leon install would be like the Golf's, you'll have to remove your back seat and the carpet covering to get to the metal area where the nutserts would have to be installed.
im no stranger to removing the rear's of Leon's :happy2: My FR TDI ran with no rear interior for 2 years
Will be stripping out the rear of the LCR ready for Inters next week aswell
Here's My old FR TDI
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fbaz88icf%2FLeon%2FP1010746.jpg&hash=9d523ade0aa79e8ae59d630478ae086ca8c7fe8a)
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Bruce do you have to cut the carpet so that the XB lies directly on the metal of the car body or can you leave the carpet to act like a "washer" between the nutsert and XB?
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Ace, Surely they all must be similar as the rear seat's from a 5 Door MK5 will fit in a Leon
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If anyone near dorset want me to check your car for XB fitment, then happy to meet up...
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Bruce do you have to cut the carpet so that the XB lies directly on the metal of the car body or can you leave the carpet to act like a "washer" between the nutsert and XB?
....You can just cut a hole in the carpet for the Allen bolt to pass through into the nutsert. The carpet gets squashed out of the way - As a 'washer' but an insignificant one.
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Robin, have you had both together on yet? :-)
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Robin, have you had both together on yet? :-)
....Yes, I refitted the XB this afternoon and went out on my usual roller-coaster test route but there was too much traffic so I turned back after 5 miles as I wasn't getting the opportunity to push it (feckin tourists driving close together at 45 mph looking at the Jurassic coast views rather than the road!). UB+XB feels very solid! But in a good way. I'll post more after I've had a proper test drive.
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bacillus: Robin answered your question: the carpet does act as a washer. If you look at the instructions, after installing the nutserts you replace the carpet, find the nutsert locations and drill through the carpet. You can then install the UNIbrace XB. :happy2:
Which makes the whole install look extremely tidy... :happy2:
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bacillus: Robin answered your question: the carpet does act as a washer. If you look at the instructions, after installing the nutserts you replace the carpet, find the nutsert locations and drill through the carpet. You can then install the UNIbrace XB. :happy2:
Which makes the whole install look extremely tidy... :happy2:
....Indeed the finished result does look very neat and tidy. Even when the XB is removed, if you screw the Allen bolts back into the nutserts through the carpet holes, it looks tidy and masks the carpet hole cuts.
However, it's more of a 10 minute job than a 5 minute job to take the XB in and out because the Allen bolts are quite long < Another good feature. :happy2:
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Robin,
Think you've done a super job on these reviews... but tell me, for your car... are you happy, impressed, glad you took the gamble? :party:
Dom
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Robin,
Think you've done a super job on these reviews... but tell me, for your car... are you happy, impressed, glad you took the gamble? :party:
Dom
....Thanks to you, yes! Extremely happy indeed. The difference since fitting UNIbraces is equivalent to fitting a Quaife diff - Something which totally transforms the whole car :notworthy:
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The difference since fitting UNIbraces is equivalent to fitting a Quaife diff - Something which totally transforms the whole car :notworthy:
And about half the cost... :smiley:
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Whilst it's interesting to read the subjective analysis, and credit for the comprehensive write-up, it'd be interesting to know if anyone in the UK or across the pond performed an objective assesment of the braces?
The usual DIY approach is to mount a laser pointer on a rear turret and aim the laser at a jury rigged board in the front of the car. You then jack up the car to a known height, once with and once without the stiffening device, noting where the laser beam hits the board when at ride height and the two jacked scenarios. Obviously this technique will only provide a relative comparison, but it's not a bad approach for DIY.
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Whilst it's interesting to read the subjective analysis, and credit for the comprehensive write-up, it'd be interesting to know if anyone in the UK or across the pond performed an objective assesment of the braces?
The usual DIY approach is to mount a laser pointer on a rear turret and aim the laser at a jury rigged board in the front of the car. You then jack up the car to a known height, once with and once without the stiffening device, noting where the laser beam hits the board when at ride height and the two jacked scenarios. Obviously this technique will only provide a relative comparison, but it's not a bad approach for DIY.
....Certainly I've been very aware that what I have written is not only very subjective but is totally unscientific. I could not possibly measure exactly what's going on without both the scientific equipment and also the knowledge how to use it. Also, my review and impressions are written in the context of the mods which my individual car already has.
However, the bottom line is not necessarily the science but more importantly the difference which UNIbraces make to the FEEL of the drive.
I emphasise that my comparisons with a Quaife are only that of degree of change following the mod - That's why I used the word "equivalent". What a diff does and what the UNIbraces do are quite different but the degree of change is similar. Both mods transform the car's handling experience to a similar degree. Which way you wish to transform your car is always up to you.
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Here's a MUCH easier way to note chassis deflection. This only works for the UNIbrace XB however. Take the XB off, jack up the car on one side and then see how far the bolt holes have shifted. But as Robin noted, this is about feel empirically. Something you definitely notice when driving the car. :happy2:
That assumes the unibrace doesn't flex at all when in service. I'm not doubting the device stiffens things up, just that I'm genuinely curious to understand how much.
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Here's a MUCH easier way to note chassis deflection. This only works for the UNIbrace XB however. Take the XB off, jack up the car on one side and then see how far the bolt holes have shifted. But as Robin noted, this is about feel empirically. Something you definitely notice when driving the car. :happy2:
That assumes the unibrace doesn't flex at all when in service. I'm not doubting the device stiffens things up, just that I'm genuinely curious to understand how much.
....As a single panel lattice-cut structure (says he who is not an engineer or architect), which furthermore is anchored and positioned to maximise its effect, it is surely bound to absorb some of the kinetic energy and forces which movement of the car subjects it to while driving. I suggest, but Bruce would know better than myself, that the XB does have a small but insignificant amount of flex just as most materials have. With absolutely no flex whatsoever wouldn't the XB be subject to break or crack? Doesn't energy need to be dissipated?
I would expect a full, or even a half, roll-cage to stiffen up the open box body of a hatchback more than the UNIbraces simply because of a structure which spreads the loads.
Although interesting, for me I don't care what the scientific data is as much as I do about the extra enjoyment to driving which the UNIbraces bring to the party. If you read my posts in the Group Buy thread and elsewhere you will see that I was sceptical about the UNIbraces - I expected the results to be scientific and academic rather than so tactile and tangible.
But as I have already said, having a permanent stiffy permanently stiffer car and ride is not every driver's cup of tea. Me? - Bring on the bends and roundabouts!
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The XB is working in tension and compression across the chassis, it does not flex.. a flat brace does not have compression stiffness(it will buckle in compression) which is why the box section part stiffens it/restrains it to give it compression abilities...
As a structural engineer who specialises in steel framed building, if bracing is used, then generally two types. Flat cross bracing or tubular sections.
1) Flat bracing is laid out in pairs (like X) so in a panel the load can be transfered into a diagonal section in tension. Load one way and the brace is in tension, load the other way and the other cross brace is in tension, meaning the original brace doesn't have to go in compression.
2) Tubular bracing you have a single strut diaginally across, and this can work in tension or compression.
Well that's how I see the XB working...
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The XB is working in tension and compression across the chassis, it does not flex.. a flat brace does not have compression stiffness(it will buckle in compression) which is why the box section part stiffens it/restrains it to give it compression abilities...
....Which is doubtless why the XB incorporates a box section cross member as the photo below:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FUNIbrace%2FXB_boxsection_1865.jpg&hash=bd7324e8726cdddb4b2996766bc383b63c3fb832)
I haven't gone into the structural details in my original post but at least it is now being discussed within the UNIbraces review thread. :happy2:
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Certainly there's no doubt that adding what is effectively a shear web in (the approximation to a box section that is) the car's body will stiffen things. I'm purely curious to try and get some handle on what % improvement is being felt by the driver.
Does anyone fancy clamping a laser pointer to their car and attempting the crude relative assessment?
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Certainly there's no doubt that adding what is effectively a shear web in (the approximation to a box section that is) the car's body will stiffen things. I'm purely curious to try and get some handle on what % improvement is being felt by the driver.
Does anyone fancy clamping a laser pointer to their car and attempting the crude relative assessment?
....I don't have a laser pointer.
All I can say is that overall the car feels and behaves very substantially more flatly planted in any kind of corner whether at slow or fast speed according to the nature of the bend. It's as if anti-roll bars are fitted which allow no roll whatsoever.
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It's just making your suspension set up do the work more effectively... ;-)
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for those, like me, who missed the GB there is now a UK distributor in RLine from Warwickshire, contact David Houghton :happy2:
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And how much are they charging...??
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and do you have contact details? my google searches are coming up fruitless...
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^^^^
I left him a message days ago on his Rline facefook page as well as on here and have had zero response. I might email Bruce @ UNIbrace - He needs better representation than that, IMO.
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david@rline.co.uk
has been in constant contact with me :happy2:
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^^^^
That's good to hear :happy2: - But why hasn't he responded to me? I'll emial him tomorrow.
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^^^^
That's good to hear :happy2: - But why hasn't he responded to me? I'll emial him tomorrow.
I think you'll need to be patient as afaik he's just setting up the business and hasn't even uploaded his web page yet.
http://www.rline.co.uk/
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And how much are they charging...??
I think it comes out at £285 for the brace.
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Lets hope he's prepared to work hard for it, especially on the group buys! :booty:
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Let's hope he's selling other bits, as I think this is a very limited market...
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Let's hope he's selling other bits, as I think this is a very limited market...
....Agreed. Mr UNIbrace Bruce has the advantage of his products being extra to his profession as an architect and engineer.
I guess it's only the slightly more hardcore modders amongst us who buy UNIbraces and furthermore, only those who are into handling mods. I wish I had bought mine to enjoy when I first saw a group buy on R32OC a couple of years ago. But perhaps they didn't offer red ones then.
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I wish I had bought mine to enjoy when I first saw a group buy on R32OC a couple of years ago. But perhaps they didn't offer red ones then.
More than that, I think the UB only came out about a year ago and the XB has had several revisions since it first appeared.
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I wish I had bought mine to enjoy when I first saw a group buy on R32OC a couple of years ago. But perhaps they didn't offer red ones then.
More than that, I think the UB only came out about a year ago and the XB has had several revisions since it first appeared.
....Ah, so Madame Fate played a hand and kept me back for a good reason.
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Just for info guys, I met up with David Houghton at Inters.
His blue R32 was signwritten with UNIBrace down the sides and went up the quarter mile a couple of times.
I'd been given his email as a contact from Bruce and had been in comms the few days before Inters, I collected a black XB off him to save a posting cost.
Not sure if he is yet on the forum, however I think he is intending to join us.
Within the chat we had i mentioned the recent group buy on here and review written by RR, so guess as he's Bruce's UK distribution man, I expect he'll be keen to help with an UNIbrace products and info.
The email address as quoted in earlier posts is correct. However if anyone needs his mobile pm me, as I'm sure he won't mind.
I've not posted it here, as I'm not sure of the rules of posting other peoples numbers on a thread.
Just gotta get both braces fitted now.
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Not sure if he is yet on the forum, however I think he is intending to join us.
He already joined and posted in the New Members intro forum. :smiley:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,49937.msg572264.html#msg572264
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XB and UB delivered today, being fitted by Piperwerx on Sat :pomppomp:
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and COST!!!!
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XB and UB fitted today :jumpmove:
only had chance to do short journey home but first impressions positive.
3 hrs labour, so £120.00 all in fitted for those wondering :happy2:
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Jesus 3 hours = £120 (£40 per hour!!!!) where the hell are you based. That £120 is almost 1.5 hours down here! :(
Fish
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Jesus 3 hours = £120 (£40 per hour!!!!) where the hell are you based. That £120 is almost 1.5 hours down here! :(
Fish
....You're not going to like this, Fish, but my VW dealership workshop charges me £25 per hour.
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That was in 1962 though!
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Cheaper if you DIY it! :smiley:
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Cheaper if you DIY it! :smiley:
....Of course. But that assumes you have both the skills and the equipment. I have neither.
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That was in 1962 though!
:signLOL:
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....You're not going to like this, Fish, but my VW dealership workshop charges me £25 per hour.
Yeah but OAP rates dont count to the general forum user. :p
Fish
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like RR, i could not have fitted XB, I would still be doing it now (ever seen that episode of the simpsons where Homer tries to erect that BBQ in his garden, exactly like me ha ha)
i could have got it done for £30.00 an hour but would not have been able to have walked home and walked back to pick it up.
been for more of a run today, definately seems to have tightened things up but fairly subtle i would say but still need to find a quieter, better road
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been for more of a run today, definately seems to have tightened things up but fairly subtle i would say but still need to find a quieter, better road
....You need a rollacoaster quiet B-road ideally. With good visibility ahead, obviously.
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I will install an XB for £80 :happy2:
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on a tight left hand bend tonight car definately felt more planted than it was previously.
i think, in terms of suspension mods the UNIbraces seem more worthwhile than TT wishbones and maybe even the WALK??
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Who's done the geometry on your car? Mine felt amazing with Walk and tt arms :driver:
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Who's done the geometry on your car? Mine felt amazing with Walk and tt arms :driver:
It's just you haven't felt the benefits of the XB and UB :P
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Who's done the geometry on your car? Mine felt amazing with Walk and tt arms :driver:
It's just you haven't felt the benefits of the XB and UB :P
Of course :laugh:
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on a tight left hand bend tonight car definately felt more planted than it was previously.
i think, in terms of suspension mods the UNIbraces seem more worthwhile than TT wishbones and maybe even the WALK??
That's good to know...'note to self' must find someone to fit these as want to try them for myself. Feel like I'm missing out here..
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Who's done the geometry on your car? Mine felt amazing with Walk and tt arms :driver:
nigel lang, as recommended by WIM
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.
I can't comment on the TT wishbones mod other than to say that they do a completely different job than the UNIbraces do which stiffen the chassis.
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Just to add that I drove over 280 miles yesterday with my daughter and the car up to the roof with her Uni belongings and the XB was extremely useful in restraining all her stuff such that I could drive as enthusiastically as normal when the conditions allowed. I just slung a blanket over the XB to protect its paintwork.
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Still waiting for those shots of the under-brace, proving that it does pull the chassis straight...
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It wont pull it straight, but it will help stop it flexing.
Fish
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It wont pull it straight, but it will help stop it flexing.
Fish
:confused:
They are one in the same...
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Not sure I'm getting what you're saying. Stopping flex is one thing, pulling it straight is another.
Here's a link to the Golf MK6 forum's groupbuy page with some pretty pictures for you.
clicky (http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25033&page=20)
Fish
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^^ not what im after but thanks :happy2:
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^^ not what im after but thanks :happy2:
Exactly what are you looking for?
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Proof that when the chassis is under torsion that the UB actually does something... i.e. reduces the amount of flex
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Proof that when the chassis is under torsion that the UB actually does something... i.e. reduces the amount of flex
....Is your train of thought that the effect of the UB is placebo rather than anything scientifically definable, Rich?
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Proof that when the chassis is under torsion that the UB actually does something... i.e. reduces the amount of flex
....Is your train of thought that the effect of the UB is placebo rather than anything scientifically definable, Rich?
I like to see things robin, if someone tells me XYZ, I want to be shown its effect... I'm aware of placebo when it comes to car related mods.
The UB is quite narrow compared to the width of the cars chassis. Imagine a 3meter wooden pole with 2 people holding it either end. You stand at the middle of the pole with your hands on the pole 50cm apart. The two people at the ends of the pole tilt the pole like / and \ ... you try and stop them.... you wont be able to. Thats a similar principle to the UB...except only on one plane.
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i fitted xb and ub together to cant comment on the ub effect on its own, but there was definately a markable difference throwing it into a tight left hander on a route i do regularly, in fact i would almost say it was quite dangerous at first as it felt like the car was on rails and i had to reign myself in...i had the remember the RR addage of have fun but safe journeys :happy2:
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.
As stated in my first post in this review, I consciously fitted and explored the UB on its own and most definitely felt a difference from stock without it. I have to say that without any scientific proof against the UB's effect, I am happy to rely on my physical senses and feelings, particularly as I did not have a lot of faith in either UNIbrace product before experiencing them.
Perhaps Bruce could comment................
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Had my handy mate visit on Sat with the intention to fit the XB.
However it all went a bit 'Pete Tong', when we realised that neither of us had a TRIPLE-SQUARE (aka “XZN” bit 12-points driver). To get the middle belt out.
So off to Halfrauds we went, our local one had these spline drivers, but only in a pack of 6, for £25.
Thinking that I'll never ever need these again post XB fit, think I'll try and see if my local garage has this magical 12 pointer thingy, to undo and then redo the fixing in the rear for dismantle/reassembly work. Suppose it's got that fixing to avoid people easily removing their belts. So will get there sometime I guess.
Note to self, read Bruce's list of required tools more thoroughly next time.
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However it all went a bit 'Pete Tong', when we realised that neither of us had a TRIPLE-SQUARE (aka “XZN” bit 12-points driver). To get the middle belt out.
So off to Halfrauds we went, our local one had these spline drivers, but only in a pack of 6, for £25.
Thinking that I'll never ever need these again post XB fit, think I'll try and see if my local garage has this magical 12 pointer thingy, to undo and then redo the fixing in the rear for dismantle/reassembly work. Suppose it's got that fixing to avoid people easily removing their belts. So will get there sometime I guess.
Note to self, read Bruce's list of required tools more thoroughly next time.
You do not need to remove the middle belt when doing the install!
On the one I did, I extended the middle seat belt belt and used a bull dog clip to prevent it from retracting before removing the seat back rests. You can then just push it(back rest) out of the way towards the rear of the boot.
This should give you enough room for the install. :smiley:
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Yes you do not need to take the seatbelt off, just manoeuvre the seat through to sit in the rear well or in the boot...
As seen here.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv108%2Fax_vts_dom%2Fd9806a20.jpg&hash=3ac498216353de2ce0d30603fc4a6e67b77315dd)
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Hi just wondering what the views were with the Xb v a rear into roll bar because just thinking that the Xb brace would be more DIY and easy :ashamed:
Cheers andy
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Hi just wondering what the views were with the Xb v a rear into roll bar because just thinking that the Xb brace would be more DIY and easy :ashamed:
Cheers andy
....They do slightly different things, Andy:
- Anti Roll Bars reduce body roll - Feels as if the suspension is fixed and the body moves.
- Both the XB and UB stiffen the chassis - Feels as if the body is planted absolutely flat and the suspension moves.
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This seems like a pretty no brainer mod then. Cheap and an easy install with good benefits. Looks good aswell :happy2:
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This seems like a pretty no brainer mod then. Cheap and an easy install with good benefits. Looks good aswell :happy2:
....I think it's a no-brainer if you either enjoy spirited (but responsible!) road driving or trackdays. But it's not a mod worth doing if it doesn't interest or suit you (and family) to do other handling and performance mods. If you enjoy your ride being stiff and hard (not harsh) and taut and tactile, then it's very worthwhile.
However, in chatting to John Hurdy who has years of trackday experience and who doesn't hang about when the conditions are safe, he reckons that the XB did nothing for his highly modified Ed30. It's difficult to understand because the XB has done a lot (unexpectedly) for my GTI.
You get used to the feel of the UNIbraces though and it becomes normal. I really must drive a standard Mk5 GTI if I get an opportunity.
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I have been asked by berg about what is the best setting for an adjustable ARB when the XB/UB are fitted. I don't know the answer, so any input would be appreciated :happy2:
I haven't changed the adjustable setting on my Eibach rear ARB since fitting my XB and UB and I have yet to experience any adverse suspension behaviour with my existing ARB setting as pic below:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FARBdroplink.jpg&hash=3882d473632979ccaafd6e156cf79fe032fac988)
^ I can't remember if this setting is at its softest or stiffest. Someone please advise? < I now know it is set to stiffer.
As I wrote in an earlier post:
- Anti Roll Bars (ARB's) reduce body roll - Feels as if the suspension is fixed and the body moves.
- Both the XB and UB stiffen the chassis - Feels as if the body is planted absolutely flat and the suspension moves.
Consequently, I'm inclined to think that fitting a XB/UB does not mean that an aftermarket adjustable ARB then needs a particular setting. Same as a coilover doesn't need any adjustment when a XB/UB is fitted.
Further comments very welcome........
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Stiffer setting. The other bolt hole would mean the bar is effectively longer allowing more flex :happy2:
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^^^^
Thanks, ashley :drinking:
So, on the stiffer setting my car isn't so stiff that I get a rear wheel to lift like a BSCC racer on Knock Hill! Neither do I suffer from excessive oversteer.
Until someone explains otherwise I think that a stiff ARB and XB/UB are complimentary to each other - One is suspension, the other is chassis.
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thanks for posting up robin, just wanted to double check :happy2:
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Here are some alternatives to the UB but they have totally missed the point that UNIbrace Bruce has understood so well and that's the structural 'X' factor:
http://www.summit-racing.eu/volkswagen/golf.html
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Still nobody wants to do my test?
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However, in chatting to John Hurdy who has years of trackday experience and who doesn't hang about when the conditions are safe, he reckons that the XB did nothing for his highly modified Ed30. It's difficult to understand because the XB has done a lot (unexpectedly) for my GTI.
Was his a 3dr or 5dr?
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However, in chatting to John Hurdy who has years of trackday experience and who doesn't hang about when the conditions are safe, he reckons that the XB did nothing for his highly modified Ed30. It's difficult to understand because the XB has done a lot (unexpectedly) for my GTI.
Was his a 3dr or 5dr?
....IIRC, a 5-door like mine. Are you thinking that a 3-door bodyshell is stiffer than a 5-door and therefore may be less beneficially effected by UNIbraces?
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Indeedy, but obviously this line of thought would be incorrect if Hurdy's was a 5dr as well.
Is RLine up and running yet? I want an XB.
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Is RLine up and running yet? I want an XB.
....The latest I hear from Bruce at UNIbrace is that RLine is "MIA" Missing In Action.
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:sad1:
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^^^^
Don't be sad - I understand that Bruce is in the process of finding another UK distributor :happy2: - Will keep you posted.
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Why not order direct from Unibrace?
http://unibrace.com/frameset.html
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problem i have is that the 3dr 8P is not available in the USA, so i'd prefer a UK distributor so I can check fitment first as even Bruce isn't 100% sure it would work
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problem i have is that the 3dr 8P is not available in the USA, so i'd prefer a UK distributor so I can check fitment first as even Bruce isn't 100% sure it would work
Hmm, looks like your only option would be to get someone to temporarily remove their xb and see if the fitting would be ok in your car.
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not a bad idea, but it's a relatively rare modification!
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^^^^
Hmm, you're in Staffordshire and I'm in Dorset... Otherwise I would take my XB out for you.
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problem i have is that the 3dr 8P is not available in the USA, so i'd prefer a UK distributor so I can check fitment first as even Bruce isn't 100% sure it would work
Save your money...take your partner out for a nice meal... ANYTHING!!! :popcornsoda:
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Moved to London now RR but car is chilling on my parents' driveway in Yorkshire. Ta for the offer anyway :happy2:
problem i have is that the 3dr 8P is not available in the USA, so i'd prefer a UK distributor so I can check fitment first as even Bruce isn't 100% sure it would work
Save your money...take your partner out for a nice meal... ANYTHING!!! :popcornsoda:
Not a fan?
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I just dont think there is ANY point in these mods, its snake oil..... your money could be put elsewhere in the car where you will feel benefit.
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your money could be put elsewhere in the car where you will feel benefit.
But you can feel a positive benefit with it fitted...
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I just dont think there is ANY point in these mods, its snake oil..... your money could be put elsewhere in the car where you will feel benefit.
....Rich, am I right in thinking that you say this without the experience of having tried a UNIbrace yourself?
It's ironic that you use the words: "where you will feel benefit" - Feeling benefit is exactly what I and others have experienced after fitting UNIbraces. As written in this review thread, I consciously tested back-to-back on exactly the same 40-mile very varied route each of the XB and UB braces independently and in combination and I was able to feel the differences.
Also, as written, I was very conscious of the possibility of any placebo effect but actual handling behaviour is physically tactile and not something restricted to being in the head.
You have only to look at the shapes of the XB and UB UNIbraces to see how their structures spread any stresses and that their anchorage points result in additionally stiffening the open box form of the Golf body. This then allows the suspension to work more and handling is effected positively when either driving hard or the road configuration has an input.
I can only say that my own direct experience of the UNIbrace mods is as I have already described. I am not urging everyone to buy UNIbraces - I am only sharing my opinions and experiences for others to make up their own minds, as indeed you have done.
[I will do my best to respond in a separate post to the 'test' which you keep mentioning - Hopefully today but I am quite busy] :smiley:
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So if they are so brilliant.... why isn't half the forum using them? :popcornsoda:
Ill await your test results. :happy2:
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What test is this?
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Still waiting for those shots of the under-brace, proving that it does pull the chassis straight...
Basically jack the car up from either side (one side only) just in front of the rear wheel from the sill. Try to fit UB... if you can fit UB no problem then its not working. :happy2:
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So if they are so brilliant.... why isn't half the forum using them? :popcornsoda:
Ill await your test results. :happy2:
....The vast majority of the forum aren't using UNIbraces for a number of reasons, not in order of importance:
- They're not free!
- Not everyone wants to modify their car's handling (for a variety of reasons).
- Not many people like having a lattice girder (XB) dividing their load space when the back seats are down (even though it's easily removable and is excellent at retaining loads in place).
- Many trackday freaks have either got a roll-cage or a car which a UNIbrace doesn't fit or is of benefit to.
- People prioritise their purchases as they individually prefer and many prefer to go for only looks/styling or remap and exhaust sound and to hell with brakes and handling mods. (Nothing wrong with that).
As with all mods for the Mk5 GTI and its stable mates, you don't actually need them but they do further enhance your car in different ways.
Btw, I'm not intending to do your actual test as you describe it but to try to find answers to the question you have raised about "pulling the chassis straight" - I don't have either the tools or a pit to allow me to get under the car and I'm not paying someone to do it just for your test no matter how many delicious Scotch Eggs you give me!
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In that case then....
Forever a sceptic...
Rich
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In that case then....
Forever a sceptic...
Rich
....So are you saying that your mind is set in stone and that I shouldn't waste my time trying to find an answer for your 'pull chassis straight' question?
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I think a blind test is called for. Someone close to RR should adjudicate by taking off the XB and/or the UB and without checking which has been removed RR should go on a truncated version of his 40 mile test drive. Do this three or four times back to back with different combos (neither XB or UB, XB only, UB only, and both) and see if RR can work out which is fitted each time. (I wouldn't reveal the results to RR until the end.)
I know people are busy so that's not all that feasible, but it would be an interesting experiment :happy2:
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Well i have been reflecting a bit about these braces, the XB i follow both the intention behind the use and why some won't consider it.
The UB though it's an improvement over having nothing the fact it's "flat" makes me wonder how benificial it is compared with the "thingy" fitted to mine.
As i see it it's the cross stress it has to help so tube or other more 3d structures should offer better stress relief in that area or am i missing the point?
Mind you i'm not convinced of these before i see some track action with them fitted.
Please let me hear your thoughts :notworthy:
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I think a blind test is called for. Someone close to RR should adjudicate by taking off the XB and/or the UB and without checking which has been removed RR should go on a truncated version of his 40 mile test drive. Do this three or four times back to back with different combos (neither XB or UB, XB only, UB only, and both) and see if RR can work out which is fitted each time. (I wouldn't reveal the results to RR until the end.)
I know people are busy so that's not all that feasible, but it would be an interesting experiment :happy2:
...."adjudicate"? - "Adjudicate" is a process which is reserved for resolving disputes in a formal court. Are my own tests/experiences, assessment and information which I have bothered to share in this forum's review of the UNIbrace products standing accused of being false?
"not all that feasible"? No it's not at all feasible is it. 4 short route (20 miles minimum to cover a variety of roads around here) adds up to about 80 miles. You gonna pay for my V-Power? - No, I thought not. A guaranteed flat surface and pit/lift-ramp is needed to install the UB properly - You got one which can be used free? - No, I thought not.
If you want to ignore what I have written about my experiences of the UNIbraces, I obviously have no problem with that. If you want to ask questions, as reading this thread shows, I am happy to try my best to answer or get answers. If you don't agree with my reported findings and/or don't want to install any UNIbraces - No problem, it's entirely up to you.
But I have done all the 'tests' I am happy to spend time and money doing.
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I can see how the XB boot brace can work.
But the UB, i cant really see having a huge difference unless your bouncing off of kerbs like a touring car driver as I cant really be that many other instances where you would get that much flex though the underbody in daily "fast road" driving
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The UB though it's an improvement over having nothing the fact it's "flat" makes me wonder how benificial it is compared with the "thingy" fitted to mine.
As i see it it's the cross stress it has to help so tube or other more 3d structures should offer better stress relief in that area or am i missing the point?
Mind you i'm not convinced of these before i see some track action with them fitted.
Please let me hear your thoughts :notworthy:
I have to agree there.
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I can see how the XB boot brace can work.
But the UB, i cant really see having a huge difference unless your bouncing off of kerbs like a touring car driver as I cant really be that many other instances where you would get that much flex though the underbody in daily "fast road" driving
:happy2: :happy2:
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I fitted both at same time so cant comment on the individual ability of each brace. Bruce however has confirmed that the XB does far more than the UB. Pipewerx who fited my braces confirmed that he could see that the XB would make a fair amount of difference whereas the UB "might not do much"
All I know is that after fitting both I can fling the car round tight bends and maintain control where previously carrying that much speed into the cormer would not have been possible/safe.
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I can see how the XB boot brace can work.
But the UB, i cant really see having a huge difference unless your bouncing off of kerbs like a touring car driver as I cant really be that many other instances where you would get that much flex though the underbody in daily "fast road" driving
....If you refer to my review you'll read that my experiences were that the UB has definite positive effects but not as strongly as the XB.
The difference isn't "huge" but I found there is a difference and I am pleased that I have both the XB and UB fitted - I simply enjoy the result on handling even if my car isn't a BTCC race car. It doesn't make me a faster driver but it does add to my confidence in my ride and my enjoyment.
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I can see how the XB boot brace can work.
But the UB, i cant really see having a huge difference unless your bouncing off of kerbs like a touring car driver as I cant really be that many other instances where you would get that much flex though the underbody in daily "fast road" driving
:happy2: :happy2:
:happy2: :happy2:
I look at thinks from a mechanical/physics/material point of view. Next time you are under a car just take a look at the structure of the car. My brain says that the TOTAL chassis cannot be significantly stiffened by a piece of metal that is probably 1/5th the total width of the cars chassis.
Similarly... look at the front subframe. Are you telling me that this piece of metal increases the rigidity of a massive piece of ali, and therefore tighten up the front end? :surprised:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.statikperformance.com%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2FGTS-SUS-1299.jpg&hash=f7198fb4c638e32da1497de6471c0cb621246adf)
Im always happy to be proven wrong...
Im not trying to be difficult or awkward here... I just like to see things work/happen.. its just the way my noggin works! :smiley:
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I look at thinks from a mechanical/physics/material point of view. Next time you are under a car just take a look at the structure of the car. My brain says that the TOTAL chassis cannot be significantly stiffened by a piece of metal that is probably 1/5th the total width of the cars chassis.
Similarly... look at the front subframe. Are you telling me that this piece of metal increases the rigidity of a massive piece of ali, and therefore tighten up the front end? :surprised:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.statikperformance.com%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2FGTS-SUS-1299.jpg&hash=f7198fb4c638e32da1497de6471c0cb621246adf)
Im always happy to be proven wrong...
Im not trying to be difficult or awkward here... I just like to see things work/happen.. its just the way my noggin works! :smiley:
....I respect you challenging the product, Rich, and that's why I'm bothering to reply :smiley:
No-one has claimed that the UNIbrace UB or XB or both, stiffens the TOTAL chassis. But only that the UNIbraces ADD to the stiffness and, importantly, that the 'open box' structure of the Golf hatchback can benefit from the additional stiffness. Have I written something in my Review which needs correction in this respect?
It's very interesting that you have posted a pic of that front brace because I know that Bruce of UNIbrace has considered the front underbody brace, but so far hasn't been convinced that it will do anything as the motor is already quite a chunk of stressed metal in that area. Assuming someone already uses upgraded mounts he is not sure that he can add anything in this area. However, if he can be confident that a 'FB' (Front Brace) can add anything significant then I expect he may produce one. A prototype rear brace (RB) is currently being tested in America.
This further supports the fact that the UNIbrace UB and XB products do not add to the TOTAL chassis stiffness. Reports from users, not just myself, state that stiffness is added and the car feels stiffer and more taut and tactile to drive. Of course, not everyone wants additional stiffness 'feel' in their car.
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I think a blind test is called for. Someone close to RR should adjudicate by taking off the XB and/or the UB and without checking which has been removed RR should go on a truncated version of his 40 mile test drive. Do this three or four times back to back with different combos (neither XB or UB, XB only, UB only, and both) and see if RR can work out which is fitted each time. (I wouldn't reveal the results to RR until the end.)
I know people are busy so that's not all that feasible, but it would be an interesting experiment :happy2:
...."adjudicate"? - "Adjudicate" is a process which is reserved for resolving disputes in a formal court. Are my own tests/experiences, assessment and information which I have bothered to share in this forum's review of the UNIbrace products standing accused of being false?
"not all that feasible"? No it's not at all feasible is it. 4 short route (20 miles minimum to cover a variety of roads around here) adds up to about 80 miles. You gonna pay for my V-Power? - No, I thought not. A guaranteed flat surface and pit/lift-ramp is needed to install the UB properly - You got one which can be used free? - No, I thought not.
If you want to ignore what I have written about my experiences of the UNIbraces, I obviously have no problem with that. If you want to ask questions, as reading this thread shows, I am happy to try my best to answer or get answers. If you don't agree with my reported findings and/or don't want to install any UNIbraces - No problem, it's entirely up to you.
But I have done all the 'tests' I am happy to spend time and money doing.
I apologise that you took my post to mean your findings were false. This is not at all what I meant. Like you, I was a sceptic about the benefits of the XB, but you have been happy with it and I feel that I would be too. (I feel the UB's potential benefits are outweighed by their drawbacks for my personal circumstances and hence it's still not something I'm interested in.)
What I was suggesting is that richwig feels that the perceived benefit of the products is subjective ("snake oil"). I'm merely proposing a more objective method of testing, short of a race driver and lap times or destructive chassis rigidity tests. I would hope that my test method would put some of his doubts to rest (or potentially confirm them - who knows).
In regards to feasibility, it's certainly a test i'd be personally interested in carrying out should I have the products in question and easy access to my car. Sadly for me neither of those are the cases.
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I apologise that you took my post to mean your findings were false. This is not at all what I meant. Like you, I was a sceptic about the benefits of the XB, but you have been happy with it and I feel that I would be too. (I feel the UB's potential benefits are outweighed by their drawbacks for my personal circumstances and hence it's still not something I'm interested in.)
What I was suggesting is that richwig feels that the perceived benefit of the products is subjective ("snake oil"). I'm merely proposing a more objective method of testing, short of a race driver and lap times or destructive chassis rigidity tests. I would hope that my test method would put some of his doubts to rest (or potentially confirm them - who knows).
In regards to feasibility, it's certainly a test i'd be personally interested in carrying out should I have the products in question and easy access to my car. Sadly for me neither of those are the cases.
....Apology totally accepted, Subegh - I was a bit prickly in my response wasn't I, so perhaps I should apologise too :grouphug:
Yes, in an ideal world it would be great if we could test products more scientifically without it costing us money. The same dilemma happens when trying to compare aftermarket air intakes. We always need to compare like-with-like for the results to be more meaningful.
Meanwhile, all I can do is what I have done and reported in this review thread. :happy2:
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.statikperformance.com%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2FGTS-SUS-1299.jpg&hash=f7198fb4c638e32da1497de6471c0cb621246adf)
This in particular puzzles me.
If you know anything about metals, you know that the alloy used in this subframe doesn't flex - as if it did, it would fatigue and crack/break. So I can say with some confidence, that this is fricking useless.
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It's the typical rubbish of finding 'x-number' of points and bracing them for no reason whatsoever. Looking at the way that's mounted, if it were to have any load, it'd simply shear the two bolts.
People need to understand that some flex is actually a good thing, that energy doesn't just dissappear, it'll transfer somewhere else and possibly to some place that isn't capable of dealing with it. Plus, with modern cars, particularly with the laser welding techniques and very sophisticated suspension in the MKV, you're never going to get it to flex unless you start running race suspension, solid mounts and slicks - you cannot generate the forces required on a road biased car.
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I have some concerns about both these products. And before I start, I just need to stress that I enjoyed RedLeaders highly comprehensive review, and respect that Red was able to notice an improvement. :happy2: :driver:
Firstly, the UB - like others, I am skeptical of its ability to control torsional stresses (it being a flat-plain plate, rather than a 3-dimensional brace). However, of much greater concern is its potential huge detrimental effect on crash-worthiness in side impacts. We all probably/hopefully know that cars have 'crumple zones' for frontal and rear-end impacts - those being the engine compartment and the boot. Side-impact crumple zones are much more critical, because there is fundamentally much less 'distance' to absorb side impacts before intrusion meets interior passengers.
Arguably, THE most important structure for side-impact crumple zones is the central transmission/exhaust tunnel. This means that on the standard Golf (sans the UB), when a side-impact occurs, if the intrusion reaches the front seat, and still has enough force (or momentum) to continue - the whole seat should remain relatively intact, but move sidewards towards the centre of the car. With the UB fitted, the centre tunnel will be far more resistant to deform as a crumple zone, so the seat itself will deform, and that would highly likely result in a fatal / non-survivable injury to the front seat occupant (shattered pelvis, shattered dislocated hip and femur). What would this train of thought have regarding insurance implications? I accept that Robin has declared this mod, and Greenlight have accepted said mod purely as a stiffening item - but would they, or other 'mod friendly' insurers re-think their acceptance of this UB mod if it becomes known that they reduce the ability of the crumple zone, and actually increase the risk of fatal injury? :stupid:
I fear that Robin, and possibly others may have either been mis-informed, or maybe made an incorrect assumption - regarding the two OEM 'braces' straddling the tunnel. Those are not 'braces', in terms of providing stiffness to the body shell - they are actually a legally required retaining device . . . . for the exhaust and/or propellor shaft on 4WD/RWD layouts. Basically, if the exhaust or prop shaft snap or somehow become disconnected near the front of the car, these flimsy stuctures retain said broken exhaust/prop shaft, prevent it from dropping onto the road surface, and prevent said items from digging in and 'pole vaulting' the car out of control. :scared:
Secondly, the XB - whilst the product itself appears to be a substancial product, designed to resist compressive forces, I think its mounting points within the car body are compromised, and less than ideal. The upper mounts arn't really on a structural part of the bodyshell. OK, they may be near the rear seat back retaining mechanism - but that part of the shell is designed to take possibly around 150kg of force (basically retaining the contents of the luggage compartment). What you are effectively asking the XB to do is to cope with the force from the potential total weight of the vehicle - say upto 1500kg force. As others have stated, if those magnitudes of forces were applied to the XB, it would simply rip out the mounting fixings as though they were attached to wet toilet tissue! Mike Roberts nailed it in the previous post, the Mk5 bodyshell is continuous-bead laser-welded (unlike the pathetic spot welding as found on even the latest Dagenham Dustbins), and also uses better, high-strength steel. This means that structural rigidity is considerably better - between 40 to 60% stiffer when compared to a Mk4 shell. :booty:
In summary, as is usual with the vast majority of so-called 'performance products' from America, they create a product (albeit nicely made and aesthetically pleasing) with little if any actual improvement over OEM, and then create ill-informed mis-beliefs we need said products. :sick:
ETTO though! :grouphug:
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I must admit that I gave no consideration whatsoever regarding how either the XB or UB would behave in the event of a serious collision.
Firstly, just to clarify: I don't think I have written anywhere in this review that the two OEM straps across the exhaust tunnel do anything other than stop an exhaust falling onto the road. Their fixing points have obviously only been used for convenience and happen to be positioned to give some value to the UNIbrace's stiffening function.
It's well known that the Mk5 Golf bodyshell is improved over the Mk4 and I would expect the Mk7 to be even further improved in terms of rigidity etc. However, on the Mk5 the UNIbraces do further enhance handling irrespective of the theory.
I'm not challenging your thinking about the dangers under impact, Sean, but wouldn't their fixing bolts snap first and thereby free the UNIbraces from the body?