MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: jedi-knight83 on July 06, 2012, 08:58:54 pm
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Finally snapped up an induction kit. 1 month old ITG with less that 400 miles. The bonus is it comes with the new cold air enclosed filter as well :) which is not going to be sold publicly via traders according to the chat I had with ITG.
I have both set up's so it gives a good chance to do some comparisons.
Visual Difference
First thing is obviously the looks. The ITG maxogen seems a bit marmite and I can see why. For approx £350 the foam heat shields aren't what I would call a quality product. However the performance of this intake is well documented and I'm not entering any engine bay show and shine competitions any time soon so it wasn't something that put me off.
The original ITG intake (shown on an A3 2.0tfsi)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2FScreenshot2012-07-06at205315.png&hash=862d023d24240a1bae1eb4ed6aab0755e053427a)
The "gen2" / "revised" / "enclosed" intake (as it has no official title I'm sure it will be called many things) Uses the same turbo connection hose, MAF housing pipe, expander hose, heat shield pipe and back 90 degree elbow hose as the original ITG intake. As I've said, ITG are not planning on releasing this kit as a package so you would need to have these parts from an existing ITG intake already.
The new parts are listed below (thanks to bigmig95):
ARAB65/84XL filter
STAB99 air filter housing
STAB99VWRCAISSPA slam panel adapter
Modified STAB99VAGTSIMB mounting bracket assembly
The revised / enclosed intake (again shown on a A3 2.0tfsi)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2FScreenshot2012-07-06at205302.png&hash=5ec1a8ab2a0e64cb39f368d47e8bd1e9b243ecca)
Looking closer at the actual filters. I removed the filter housing from the new filter (on the right) to show the difference
New style on the right. Old style on the left
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-0771-7b81.jpg&hash=7a7f5b1d9f998ded5efcdfd81ceb830a44157ecc)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-0730-db89.jpg&hash=3173524e16e1037d70a45e779214f98d451ff710)
Cost
Again, because its not an official system there is no set cost as yet for the upgrade parts but its likely to be around £200 for extra parts.
Fitting
If you already have an ITG fitted you can remove the filter, the front 90 degree elbow hose and the extension pipe that is screwed to the engine block. These are not used in the new kit.
First you need find the hose and valve shown here. Remove the hose clip and pull out the valve and shorten the hose by approx 10mm. then push the valve back in and re do up the hose clip
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2FIMG_2301-1.jpg&hash=7ec31b2aae73131bc41a6d5666c206c783e21a3e)
Then fit the new bracket. I used 7 of the supplied washers to lift it up to the correct height for the MK5 GTi
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-3536-d1ab.jpg&hash=15a5894902cd5e39f4f96adc4f6dc6eb7bee6a7e)
You may then want to add some protective wrapping or cut up some flexi conduit to protect the hose that the bracket ends up touching
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2302-1.jpg&hash=1591e61ac68761aa2843b9dbfe9fbdd368bb881e)
Then fit the slam panel attachment in place and then slide the filter canister into the hose and then bring it forwards into the slam panel attachment (I have not yet got the correct slam panel part so no photos of this bit yet. This is just theory and I will amend this part once I have it fitted.
Aim to fit a good 30mm+ of the canister pipe into the rear hose
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2319.jpg&hash=3542c10ec63db58aeb8c9b0d6c92a9a085850176)
Then use the supplied strap over the canister pipe to hold it in place
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-354b-8bd7.jpg&hash=dbc2a230c83bbfdcad9f330281780a1d9b29b4f4)
Audible difference
Darth Vaders evil twin disappears with the new enclosed filter. You can still hear a slight whooshing on acceleration but to my ears is barely any louder than the stock intake and the whooshing and hissing on part throttle of the open filter is vastly reduced if not completely eradicated.
I will try to record engine bay and cabin audio in due course.
Performance
Something which needs much more testing and a rolling road but here are the results of some crude on the road logging sessions. remember this is without the slam panel adapter in place so the enclosed system was still probably sucking in hot engine bay air. Again this will be updated in due course.
I did 2 runs (1 in either direction) on the same stretch of road with each filter set up (so 4 runs in total). The runs were no more than 60 mins apart and the outside temperature was 19.5 - 20 degrees according to my dash. Run was done in 3rd gear on a DSG car
Incase the legend is too small to read.
Blue = open filter run 1
Red = open filter run 2
Green = closed filter run 1
Purple = closed filter run 2
Air mass
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2Fairmassgraph.jpg&hash=11c122ab1027f1b7ea1aded411f9a0dab7e4d0ef)
Temperature
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2Ftemperaturegraph.jpg&hash=430dc97cac64725ce78aae95b72055a5fecb1392)
XLS file from the open filter
http://u55158955@s300610021.websitehome.co.uk/UtilityImages/ITG%20open%20log.xls
XLS file from the closed filter
http://u55158955@s300610021.websitehome.co.uk/UtilityImages/ITG%20closed%20log.xls
Thanks for looking.
This first post will be updated with new info as time goes on.
Nathan
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I would be very interested in noise levels of the enclosed part?
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I would be very interested in noise levels of the enclosed part?
i will try to compare by ear to the best of my ability and report back.
I'll be interested to see if there is any benefit / downside to the enclosed version. I guess getting a cold air feed is better than the open filter?? but it looks like a slightly smaller filter from the pics.
Anyway collecting sunday so will know more then.
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I am not sure the size of filter will matter upto a point?
I could be wrong.
The noise levels of the 'standard' Maxogen is far too much for me.
You did well to get both in the deal.
I don't want to know but did you get them for a good price too?
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I am not sure the size of filter will matter upto a point?
I could be wrong.
The noise levels of the 'standard' Maxogen is far too much for me.
You did well to get both in the deal.
I don't want to know but did you get them for a good price too?
£350 for both which is a tad more than a brand new itg on its own. I had set a max budget of £270 for an intake but its practically new and i was curious about the new part so figured it was worth the bit extra.
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My understanding from what I have learnt about the Forge Twintake, is that surface area of a cone filter does make a difference: More surface area = more gain. However, I don't know how substantial such a gain would be.
An open filter will certainly be noisier than a closed one.
Personally I very much prefer ITG's closed version as far as looks are concerned.
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im guessing its the same enclosure (all be it slightly modified to extra length) as the mk6
http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=24610&xSec=1095
why are the mk6 inductions always much cheaper than the mk5 too?
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why are the mk6 inductions always much cheaper than the mk5 too?
More people modding MK5's easy money :grin:
Another year or so im sure the Mk6 price will start to rise :signLOL:
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another plan for the open itg version was i wanted to make a custom fibreglass enclosure along the same lines as the volant enclosure that takes air from the centre scoop still.
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another plan for the open itg version was i wanted to make a custom fibreglass enclosure along the same lines as the volant enclosure that takes air from the centre scoop still.
:popcornsoda: :popcornsoda:
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I would be very interested in noise levels of the enclosed part?
i will try to compare by ear to the best of my ability and report back.
I'll be interested to see if there is any benefit / downside to the enclosed version. I guess getting a cold air feed is better than the open filter?? but it looks like a slightly smaller filter from the pics.
Anyway collecting sunday so will know more then.
Fitted mine last weekend. Little bit more fiddly to fit with than the open filter system. Some minor hose modifications to be carried out due to clashing with the cannister. The hose pictured needed about 10mm cutting off so this valve didn't clash. Coolant hoses underneath the cannister may need some looking at with clashing / rubbing.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2300.jpg&hash=5ae268aeddb35896d9ebb877c43269180c80b35c)
You'll also need to ensure that there is minimum safe engagement in the existing maxogen hose (if converting from the open filter system) The air in end need to be engaged as much as possible into the grill / slam panel adaptor plate, if this is just engaged by a few mm engine movement may cause the nose to drop out the panel adaptor. This may be more of an issue on DSG based vehicles under aggresive gear changes. Mines a manual and I stuck about 35mm into the hose to make the air in nose engagement half decent. Hasn't come out so far. :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2319.jpg&hash=3542c10ec63db58aeb8c9b0d6c92a9a085850176)
I'd be really interested in flow figures from a back to back test on these two ITG variants. From a bums on seats perspective there seems no difference to me personally (Revo Stage 1 GTi, KO3) .
The noise difference is the major improvement. My open filter was driving me mad but this is so much quieter, still the faint noises from the turbo control system but without that intrusive noise at part throttle of the open system which wasn't my cup of tea :happy2:
Thanks to pirelli08 for putting this thread on that led me to purchasing the new cannister arrangement
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,49126.0.html
Omly problem now is her indoors likes driving it now it's quieter :sad1:
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Oh you got the enclosed bit too?
How did you get yours?
Apparently it's the front part of the mk6 intake
Picked it up today. All looks good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Glad u brought a intake,last week we where both after a twintake in the sales section
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Oh you got the enclosed bit too?
How did you get yours?
Apparently it's the front part of the mk6 intake
Picked it up today. All looks good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dropped ITG as soon as I saw Pirelli08's thread. Spoke to them nicely and they were very helpful. :happy2:
For anyone else the part numbers to change from open maxogen to cannister type are:
ARAB65/84XL filter
STAB99 air filter housing
STAB99VWRCAISSPA slam panel adapter
Modified STAB99VAGTSIMB mounting bracket assembly.
Let us know what you think when you've fitted it :smiley:
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I'm happy to do a vagcom maf log of the stock / open / enclosed of someone gives me instructions on which blocks to log and how to display the information etc.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Oh you got the enclosed bit too?
How did you get yours?
Apparently it's the front part of the mk6 intake
Picked it up today. All looks good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dropped ITG as soon as I saw Pirelli08's thread. Spoke to them nicely and they were very helpful. :happy2:
For anyone else the part numbers to change from open maxogen to cannister type are:
ARAB65/84XL filter
STAB99 air filter housing
STAB99VWRCAISSPA slam panel adapter
Modified STAB99VAGTSIMB mounting bracket assembly.
Let us know what you think when you've fitted it :smiley:
Which part is the modified mounting bracket assembly you mention. I've not really had chance to get it all out the box even yet.
Althought the seller did point out a hole on the bottom of the filter enclosure that he presumed was for mounting on the mk6?
Can I ask aswell how much you were charged for the extra canister and bits?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Parts supplied
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2288.jpg&hash=8cc73d0c6b3f00d95f528c39e903340bdba8e541)
The modified bracket comes with a rubber strap, pictured in the centre of the photo.
The cannister smaller diameter downstream of the filter sits in the half moon shape bracket and is fastened to the threaded insert just to the front left of the battery box.
Thread insert viewed here
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2301-1.jpg&hash=f49037d446cb0c4cd26f274e0d979d63de0fb025)
Bracket attached here. Sorry for the poor photo
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2302-1.jpg&hash=1591e61ac68761aa2843b9dbfe9fbdd368bb881e)
Hope this helps :happy2:
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I think you did alright there for both options.
I have just emailed ITG to see when its released otherwise I may just buy the parts seperately.
I am not sure the size of filter will matter upto a point?
I could be wrong.
The noise levels of the 'standard' Maxogen is far too much for me.
You did well to get both in the deal.
I don't want to know but did you get them for a good price too?
£350 for both which is a tad more than a brand new itg on its own. I had set a max budget of £270 for an intake but its practically new and i was curious about the new part so figured it was worth the bit extra.
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Well its absolutely chucking down with rain and forecast shows heavy rain all day so not alot of hope of getting it fitted today.
Does anyone know a step by step guide to logging the maf / intake temps etc?
IE...
1. plug in vag com and start car
2. log these blocks..
3. do a 0-80 run through gears
etc etc?
Happy to provide all the data i can to compare set ups vs stock etc.
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Parts supplied
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2288.jpg&hash=8cc73d0c6b3f00d95f528c39e903340bdba8e541)
The modified bracket comes with a rubber strap, pictured in the centre of the photo.
The cannister smaller diameter downstream of the filter sits in the half moon shape bracket and is fastened to the threaded insert just to the front left of the battery box.
Thread insert viewed here
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2301-1.jpg&hash=f49037d446cb0c4cd26f274e0d979d63de0fb025)
Bracket attached here. Sorry for the poor photo
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2302-1.jpg&hash=1591e61ac68761aa2843b9dbfe9fbdd368bb881e)
Hope this helps :happy2:
What's the part in the bottom plastic bag? Not sure I've been given that part
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Bit of flexi conduit, goes over one of the coolant hoses, see photos. One of the hoses nearly touches the support bracket. This just stops it rubbing through :happy2:
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Does anyone know a step by step guide to logging the maf / intake temps etc?
IE...
1. plug in vag com and start car
2. log these blocks..
3. do a 0-80 run through gears
etc etc?
Blocks 003 (for intake air mass + overall timing) and 004 (for intake temp).
You need to do a third or fourth (preferable) gear pull from around 2k rpm to red line when logging.
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Bit of flexi conduit, goes over one of the coolant hoses, see photos. One of the hoses nearly touches the support bracket. This just stops it rubbing through :happy2:
....I did the same to protect a hose from my aluminium engine cover. If not protected it's surprising how quickly it can rub through and that could be with disastrous consequences.
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Well it cleared up enough for me to fit the itg. I got impatient and ended up doing it at my girlfriends :)
I couldn't get the canister to fit at all. Not sure exactly which hose needs adjusting but I gave up with that for now till I can work it out properly and just fitted the open filter.
Should be a fun drive home later for sure.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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For anyone else the part numbers to change from open maxogen to cannister type are:
ARAB65/84XL filter
STAB99 air filter housing
STAB99VWRCAISSPA slam panel adapter
Modified STAB99VAGTSIMB mounting bracket assembly.
If you don't mind me asking, how much for these parts from ITG?
Cheers, Martin
:happy2:
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just got home and ive got to say i dont mind the open itg filter noise.
for the first 5-10 mins when the engine is cooler it seemed louder and maybe because i was part throttle around town but then full throttle and motorway speeds you cant tell much difference in noise
Only think was i seem to have a bit of a whistle (like a harmonica noise) for a few hundred rpm when pulling hard. Is this normal?
In terms of performance it seems alot stronger at the top end :)
Thinking of my failed attempt to fit the enclosed canister im pretty sure i have the wrong slam panel adapter (guy i bought it from had it on an A3). It doesnt fit well at all.
Also I still cannot work out which hoses I'd need to shorten to enable the canister to sit low enough?
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Is the whistle around peak torque levels? So about 2800RPM? Mine whistles and its stock intake :happy2:
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Is the whistle around peak torque levels? So about 2800RPM? Mine whistles and its stock intake :happy2:
i'll check tomorrow.
sounds like someone inhaling through a harmonica. not the nicest noise tbh. The rest of the whooshing and sucking I dont mind.
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Is the whistle around peak torque levels? So about 2800RPM? Mine whistles and its stock intake :happy2:
i'll check tomorrow.
sounds like someone inhaling through a harmonica. not the nicest noise tbh. The rest of the whooshing and sucking I dont mind.
I know what you mean, I had a K&N Typhoon do that sound, removed with in a week. Installed a Twintake last week. Still have the same issue. Which means back to OEM intake for again. I guess I will end up with a Carbonio now.
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Just been and had a look again and I can see which pipe you mean now from this image..
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjj45%2Fgodsy1969%2FIMG_2301-1.jpg&hash=f49037d446cb0c4cd26f274e0d979d63de0fb025)
Mine wasnt actually touching there and infact mine already seems quite short and out the way.
It seemed to be touching more on the larger pipes underneath?
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The coolant pipes underneath are very close. You could add flexi conduit or insulated heat proof wrap (if it fits on with the limited space), anything that prevent rubbing on the cannister. Heat wrap ideally, reduce heat transfer to the cannister even more, I've a couple of lengths of heat wrap I might try when I get 5.
If you get chance send me a pic' of your slam panel adaptor and i'll compare it with mine.
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The slam panel plate measures 20cm wide and 12 cm high and 4.5 cm deep at its thickest point tapering off to 2 cm deep (depth of the top edge that is)
The previous guy has already cut it slightly to fit his car but it doesn't seem to fit the golf at all
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-b64d-7348.jpg&hash=30a5710c170fddfb3a3bf3cc8eb9f72f346b6749)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-b65b-fa85.jpg&hash=8987b9dd35ebe04b94acc4258568354b28b12fe2)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Just spoken to Andy at ITG... one of those freaky moments where your blown away by the customer service!
He somehow knew who I was, who i'd bought my kit from and what I was after while I was still half explaining that "I've got a golf gti and I've bought a ........" and that was as far as I got lol.
The golf slam panel part is indeed different and its now on its way.
Andy also said that this kit is never going to be released as an oficial all in one kit... however he is putting it together as an 'upgrade' kit for those who have the open filter version and would like to swap over but people will have to contact ITG (not this seconds as he sounds run off his feet and is still sorting it out) rather than it ever being for sale through resellers.
He has also given me tips on fitting so the canister doesn't go as low and touch the coolant hoses as much.
Also he said that this enclosed canister is rated for 340bhp BUT is run on a few BTCC cars running 360bhp+ and ITG have tested it at 360bhp and it records 7degrees C lower intake temps that the open system.
The open system is rated at 360bhp.
My humble stage 1 is 240bhp so im well within the limits of the enclosed smaller filter.
Need to get it fitted now. I've got to say I liked the darth vader noises but would be interested to see if this gets rid of my 'harmonica' type noise.
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Glad you got sorted :happy2:. I got mine from Andy and he was extremely helpful. IIRC Andy suggested spacing the cannister outlet pipe support bracket up with washers to reduce interference with the the coolant hoses running underneath.
I liked the open filter to start with but I ended up becoming tiresome of it with the part throttle induction noise (must be my age!!!). Wide open it was fine. The gains were worth the noise though at the time. The new cannister ticks all my boxes, hp gains and a reduction in noise from my old setup :jumpmove:
People should expect to pay around the £200 mark for the parts to upgrade from open system to new cannister type.
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New canister in place at last. Not too bad in the end once Andy told me to space up the bracket that supports it.
I've fitted it without the slam panel adapter at the moment but its very secure with the bracket and strap and its still going to be force fed with air from the front as the canister opening is sitting right behind the grill air inlet.
Just about to take the laptop and go for a test / log but just revving it on the drive and it sounds like a rally car! :driver:
The intake woosh doesnt sound as prominent but when you lift off and it comes back down the revs its burbling loads! Is this normal for the 2 of you that have this fitted? lol
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If i understand correctly, yes intake is quieter (particularly part throttle). When backing off the throttle the turbo recirc' / control system etc is still reasonably prominent in noise. At least you can hear everything working still which does have it's advantages.
Need to listen to it really to compare with mine.
Get that data up :party:.
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At least you can hear everything working still which does have it's advantages.
....A very valuable advantage in my opinion :happy2:
And it's not just an advantage in identifying an air intake problem. Subconsciously you register every sound which is normal to your car's smooth running and any variation in those sounds then alerts you.
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Just done a couple of logged runs with the enclosed canister. How to I post a xls file? I presume it will mean more to you guys than to me.
Also... unfortunately my 'harmonica' style whistle is still there from about 3-4k when pulling hard :( Thats the bit I dont like.
The darth vader style whooshing is al gone with the canister though. Only just louder than stock.
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XLS should be available from here (hosted it in the back end of my website.
http://u55158955@s300610021.websitehome.co.uk/UtilityImages/ITG%20closed%20log.xls
Temperature according to my dash was 19.5 degrees on run 1 and 20 degrees on run 2
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192.5=240bhp is that what you were hoping for?
XLS should be available from here (hosted it in the back end of my website.
http://u55158955@s300610021.websitehome.co.uk/UtilityImages/ITG%20closed%20log.xls
Temperature according to my dash was 19.5 degrees on run 1 and 20 degrees on run 2
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192.5=240bhp is that what you were hoping for?
XLS should be available from here (hosted it in the back end of my website.
http://u55158955@s300610021.websitehome.co.uk/UtilityImages/ITG%20closed%20log.xls
Temperature according to my dash was 19.5 degrees on run 1 and 20 degrees on run 2
Sorry I'm confused? You can tell my BHP from that chart? I was posting this to show intake volume and temp and im going to refit the open cone and do another run to compare now.
It was 236bhp before the intake so I'd have hoped for nearer 250bhp now tbh.
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Yes. Just take the highest flow figure and divide it by 0.8.
Apparently its very accurate and on a good dyno its usually about right.
Its the MAF reading btw.
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on that basis i'll be selling it again sharpish :)
£350 for 4bhp isnt quite what I was expecting.
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Some more photos comparing the filters. I took the enclosure off to compare.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-0730-db89.jpg&hash=3173524e16e1037d70a45e779214f98d451ff710)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-0771-7b81.jpg&hash=7a7f5b1d9f998ded5efcdfd81ceb830a44157ecc)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Just for more info and comparisons, each Twintake filter (enclosed) is about the size of the enclosed ITG filter. The open ITG filter has a surface area more comparible with total of the Twintake's pair. I wonder if that has anything to do with the ITG and Twintake delivering a similar performance gain, though the ITG has the edge.
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I've got the open itg with heat sheild and don't think it's to loud to be fair. Maybe I've just used to it but then again im usually listening to my tunes on my iPod.make good power with itg installed.noticed the power difference straight away. :smiley:
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I've got the open itg with heat sheild and don't think it's to loud to be fair.
....Sound and loudness is very subjective. What is one man's meat is another man's poison. The ITG open filter version is generally considered to be the loudest of all the 2.0T FSI air intakes (and to deliver the greatest gains).
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And the log from the open filter.
http://u55158955@s300610021.websitehome.co.uk/UtilityImages/ITG%20open%20log.xls
again the temps were 19.5-20 degrees c.
Figures looks pretty similar to me.
Not sure if I've got time to put the stock intake back on to do a log but i guess this shows the difference between the two ITG filters.
bit worried by what hardy said now and worried I may be disappointed come dyno day at R-Tech again.
Also still have the slight whistle from 3-4k rpm :sad1:
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Jedi... mine whistles at 3500RPM... i was checking it out today after out convo. about it yesterday. :happy2:
You can just hear it on this video when it goes over 30MPH...
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Just made a couple of graphs from the data.
Not sure if they are much good and again they dont show much of a difference.
Air mass
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2Fairmassgraph.jpg&hash=11c122ab1027f1b7ea1aded411f9a0dab7e4d0ef)
Temperature
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2Ftemperaturegraph.jpg&hash=430dc97cac64725ce78aae95b72055a5fecb1392)
Remember this is without the slam panel part in place so once that arrives i'll do back to back tests again and I may even have time to stick the stock intake back on as well.
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Interesting, thanks for the effort (and petrol!)
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Jedi... mine whistles at 3500RPM... i was checking it out today after out convo. about it yesterday. :happy2:
You can just hear it on this video when it goes over 30MPH...
cant hear it at all on the video. I'll try to capture mine on video.
It sounded the same with either filter fitted I must admit so perhaps something in the other pipework or my turbo but I never heard it with the stock intake.
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Try using headphones,,, it is there.
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Interesting, thanks for the effort (and petrol!)
Is it? I thought it was a bit inconclusive. :confused:
Like i said i'll run more once I have the slam panel adapter as maybe hot engine air was still getting into the enclosed filter.
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Try using headphones,,, it is there.
Hmm very faint and sounds different to mine. Mine is more sustained.
I'll pop out in a bit and try to capture it. I might try to strap my gopro in the engine bay. Will be too dark for video :signLOL: but it should capture the audio fine under there.
I'll then go through this thread and take all the important info a pics and do a summary with the info in the first post and rename the thread so it can be a fresh pool of info on the enclosed filter.
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Interesting, thanks for the effort (and petrol!)
Is it? I thought it was a bit inconclusive. :confused:
Like i said i'll run more once I have the slam panel adapter as maybe hot engine air was still getting into the enclosed filter.
It may become clearer after a number of runs to see if the results are consistent. Look forward to seeing if the adapter/ram bit gives it the edge
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Sorry just being lazy and hosting these here so I can use them in my revised first post.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-3536-d1ab.jpg&hash=15a5894902cd5e39f4f96adc4f6dc6eb7bee6a7e)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fbcdeb38e-354b-8bd7.jpg&hash=dbc2a230c83bbfdcad9f330281780a1d9b29b4f4)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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First post updated with all the info that has been posted in this thread.
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on that basis i'll be selling it again sharpish :)
£350 for 4bhp isnt quite what I was expecting.
I think with a stage 1 map you will not see much gain as the standard filter is still able to flow the air needed for 240bhp.
Also you need to leave whatever filter you have chosen on the car for a week and then do some more logging as the ECU needs to adapt.
I think after that you will see 250bhp.
It will be more responsive and maybe better MPG.
When I had the ITG and exhaust I was MAFing at about 330bhp and now with the Pipercross Panel its 300bhp. So you can see the gains with bigger flow.
Thats a 2+ ED30 BTW.
If you goto Stage 2 or 3 now it will make a difference but give it time to adapt.
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on that basis i'll be selling it again sharpish :)
£350 for 4bhp isnt quite what I was expecting.
I think with a stage 1 map you will not see much gain as the standard filter is still able to flow the air needed for 240bhp.
Also you need to leave whatever filter you have chosen on the car for a week and then do some more logging as the ECU needs to adapt.
I think after that you will see 250bhp.
It will be more responsive and maybe better MPG.
When I had the ITG and exhaust I was MAFing at about 330bhp and now with the Pipercross Panel its 300bhp. So you can see the gains with bigger flow.
Thats a 2+ ED30 BTW.
If you goto Stage 2 or 3 now it will make a difference but give it time to adapt.
Ok thanks.
I have left the open filter on there for now. I still need to work out why I'm getting this funny whistle and see if it can be eradicated.
My MPG seems to have dropped considerably since fitting (and no im not counting the big acceleration tests in that :) ). On my usual drive home from southend to cambridge the other night where i wasn't driving hard it only got 24mpg where i usually get 28+mpg. Hopefully this will settle after adapting?
Im due back at R-tech in a couple of weeks so hopefully it will have had plenty of time to settle. I can add power graphs and more logging runs then as well...
I guess the good result of todays test show that the smaller filter doesn't seem to loose anything in terms of air flow and temp and it obviously has the upside of looking neater and being much quieter.
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Quite quickly falling out of love with the ITG now...
Fitted the stock set up (which has a pipercross panel filter) to log and then re installed the closed ITG set up with the correct slam panel plate now.
Ran 2 runs with each set up again down the same stretch of road in 3rd gear. outside temp read 19-20 degrees on all runs.
ECU was reset (fault codes cleared in engine mode on vagcom) and then throttle body alignment carried out after fitting each set up then its a 5 mins drive to my test road which was done gently.
Intake temps were identical so no point posting those. I've ran out of patients to try to open filter now but going from the tests the other day it didnt seem to make much difference.
Air Mass stock with pipercross filter vs ITG closed
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2Fairmass.jpg&hash=f7acd95551577ccd5d2b7ac5a883fb291c3b457a)
Actual boost stock with pipercross filter vs ITG closed
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FCar_Stuff%2FGolf_GTI%2Fboost.jpg&hash=d80a7c6cbe326b5820021c18b3be14e30fdde633)
The ITG was only slightly better on air mass. 4-10 g/s
On the boost it was a bit worse at the beginning of the run
Now I know this is only logging and not a rolling road but TBH I was expecting bigger gains?? or is this completely normal?
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Whats your definitive MAF?
Im here if you think of selling........ :popcornsoda:
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Whats your definitive MAF?
Im here if you think of selling........ :popcornsoda:
definitive MAF?
HA I thought you had one and sold it yourself?
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Im interested in the whole enclosed thing.
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Im interested in the whole enclosed thing.
well as long as you dont get the annoying whistle!! the enclosed filter is MUCH quieter and there is none of the whooshing and sucking on part throttle and when you let off. Its barely louder than my stock engine cover with a pipercross panel filter.
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I have not see much losses with the stock intake and a good panel filter, if you think about it its the same setup on the S3 at 265bhp stock and 300bhp just from a stage 1 map using the stock paper filters.
We have done lots of testing for filter companies over the years and have seen little gains from induction kits (we upset them and they never came back as we did not give them the 12-22bhp gain on testing like the superchips dyno.... :stupid:), only when pushing turbos hard at stage2 and above is when we started to see nice "peak" power gains from induction kits over the oem setups.
At stage 1 k03 TFSi tuning you need to be looking at reducing exhaust back pressures first, just by removing the pre-cat you "could" gain 10bhp peak power and upto 15bhp in the midrange, get a sports cat fitted and you could be seeing gains of 20+bhp at points on a dyno graph.
Another way to gain power from flow is reduce the pressure drop between the turbo outlet and inlet manifold, getting outlet and inlet pressures close to each other by just 1-2psi could easy gain 10-15 bhp at points. Higher flow intercoolers and bigger charge pipes.
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I have not see much losses with the stock intake and a good panel filter, if you think about it its the same setup on the S3 at 265bhp stock and 300bhp just from a stage 1 map using the stock paper filters.
We have done lots of testing for filter companies over the years and have seen little gains from induction kits (we upset them and they never came back as we did not give them the 12-22bhp gain on testing like the superchips dyno.... :stupid:), only when pushing turbos hard at stage2 and above is when we started to see nice "peak" power gains from induction kits over the oem setups.
At stage 1 k03 TFSi tuning you need to be looking at reducing exhaust back pressures first, just by removing the pre-cat you "could" gain 10bhp peak power and upto 15bhp in the midrange, get a sports cat fitted and you could be seeing gains of 20+bhp at points on a dyno graph.
Nick. your supposed to be on holiday now. :signLOL: log off and start relaxing.
Well as you know i've had the pre cat knocked out now so that should have improved things a bit.
My exhaust is still sooting up pretty quickly though so perhaps still over fuelling?
If im not going to see much of a gain with any intake then I might save some money and go back to the stock set up.
Shame though when everyone seems to say what a beneficial mod having an aftermarket intake is.
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totally agree with Nick, only really felt the benefits from the ITG when stage 2+, and higher up te rev range at the expense of low down grunt
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We have done lots of testing for filter companies over the years and have seen little gains from induction kits
I have revo stage 1 and have had my (open) ITG fitted for a week now. You cant tell me there are are little gains to be had as I have noticed a big difference , especialy mid range.
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I have not see much losses with the stock intake and a good panel filter, if you think about it its the same setup on the S3 at 265bhp stock and 300bhp just from a stage 1 map using the stock paper filters.
We have done lots of testing for filter companies over the years and have seen little gains from induction kits (we upset them and they never came back as we did not give them the 12-22bhp gain on testing like the superchips dyno.... :stupid:), only when pushing turbos hard at stage2 and above is when we started to see nice "peak" power gains from induction kits over the oem setups.
At stage 1 k03 TFSi tuning you need to be looking at reducing exhaust back pressures first, just by removing the pre-cat you "could" gain 10bhp peak power and upto 15bhp in the midrange, get a sports cat fitted and you could be seeing gains of 20+bhp at points on a dyno graph.
Nick. your supposed to be on holiday now. :signLOL:
Well as you know i've had the pre cat knocked out now so that should have improved things a bit.
My exhaust is still sooting up pretty quickly though so perhaps still over fuelling?
If im not going to see much of a gain with any intake then I might save some money and go back to the stock set up.
Shame though when everyone seems to say what a beneficial mod having an aftermarket intake is.
They will aways soot up a little at stage1 power as the "Lambdasoll für Bauteileschutz" maps are still in play and to be use to dump fuel as part of thermal component protection, which mean when giving the car some hard beans the lambda with drop to the richer side around 0.79 0.81 to cool the combustion at a compromise to power. Only when the main cat gets removed and better charge cooling gets added then the lambda mapping is aimed more towards power by running around 0.84 - 0.85. At stage1 its a fine art to get the balance right of all conditions.
I will make sure we have lots of time booked for you in the workshop, we can test many things on the dyno if needed to see whats worth doing at stage 1
ps
Wife is packing now... I have fitted the Halfords roof box to put the kids in..... Heading down south about 10am tomorrow.. :laugh:
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We have done lots of testing for filter companies over the years and have seen little gains from induction kits
I have revo stage 1 and have had my (open) ITG fitted for a week now. You cant tell me there are are little gains to be had as I have noticed a big difference , especialy mid range.
Very little peak power gains to be had.
Your running Bosch MED9 ecu which are load and torque based, the load and torque structure is based on MAF and MAP readings the ecu works out the power and cuts back. Put an induction kit on a stock TFSI and you will be lucky to see 1-2bhp on the peak numbers.
Start pushing the power to a point where the intake becomes restrictive, then you will be gains over a stock intake but no more power than the ecu will allow. The best way to fool the TFSI to make more power without mapping is reduce back pressure.
With your setup you could have gained an avg of 5-6lbft across the midrange or on the peak boost point, if your current oem intake was an isssue then the peak hp/flow high rpm gains would have been much greater.
The big peak power gains from induction kits are on NA engines, look at the R32 10bhp gain between 6400-6800rpm just from an induction kit, but nothing in the midrange.
I am running 2-3 cars every day 6 days a week on my dyno and have done for the last 4 years, I have see all the kits, oem intakes, diy kits ect and have a good picture in my head of what does what.
We had a carbonio induction on a stage2 1.8T k03s.... 208bhp customer said car "felt and sounded quicker" when he fitted the £200+ induction kit, I could not map the car over 208bhp with over 6 hours on the dyno trying. Jim removed the Carbonio induction kit and fitted a OEM air box with pipercross filter and did a power run back to back the result was 18bhp on the peak power. Just did not sound as good in the midrange.
I am trying to help people save a little bit of money, a £35 Pipercross filter works fine on stage 1 TFSi tuning.
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Maf readings are also dependant on requested and actual boost, if you are achieving the requested boost on a stock intake, then fitting a 'better' intake wont increase MAF as the engine itself is not requesting any more flow, but at the point the stock inlet becomes restrictive, the ITG may help.
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Hmmm :popcornsoda: £400 that could've been spent keeping swmbo happy then?
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I feel I've opened a can of worms.
Perhaps I should ignore the maf / boost loggings and wait till the dyno to see what its really bringing to the table. TBH i cant feel much difference from the drivers seat on the road... but maybe my car isnt adapting itself to the intake well?
End of the day i dont mind selling and running stock.
My car made 234bhp on r-tech dyno which Nick felt was a little down so suggested removing the pre cat and getting an intake... both of which I have done. I only really want 240-250bhp but would like it nice and torquey and driveable so if we can get that with just the pre cat removed in the end then I'll be happy and if its ends up that the intake isnt adding anything on my stage 1 then I'll sell it.
I guess I was expecting it to be amazing and give a noticeable difference over OEM seeing as lots of people say what a good upgrade it is.
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I feel I've opened a can of worms.
Perhaps I should ignore the maf / boost loggings and wait till the dyno to see what its really bringing to the table. TBH i cant feel much difference from the drivers seat on the road... but maybe my car isnt adapting itself to the intake well?
End of the day i dont mind selling and running stock.
My car made 234bhp on r-tech dyno which Nick felt was a little down so suggested removing the pre cat and getting an intake... both of which I have done. I only really want 240-250bhp but would like it nice and torquey and driveable so if we can get that with just the pre cat removed in the end then I'll be happy and if its ends up that the intake isnt adding anything on my stage 1 then I'll sell it.
I guess I was expecting it to be amazing and give a noticeable difference over OEM seeing as lots of people say what a good upgrade it is.
We will see what we can do next time your down..... Remember last time you was running the turbo N75 duty flat out across the whole rpm range and only made 214bhp... There are many factors to tuning, 3-5mm pre load on the actuator and a map tweak could get you closer to 255bhp as I found out the other day and that was on a stock filter.
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I feel I've opened a can of worms.
Perhaps I should ignore the maf / boost loggings and wait till the dyno to see what its really bringing to the table. TBH i cant feel much difference from the drivers seat on the road... but maybe my car isnt adapting itself to the intake well?
End of the day i dont mind selling and running stock.
My car made 234bhp on r-tech dyno which Nick felt was a little down so suggested removing the pre cat and getting an intake... both of which I have done. I only really want 240-250bhp but would like it nice and torquey and driveable so if we can get that with just the pre cat removed in the end then I'll be happy and if its ends up that the intake isnt adding anything on my stage 1 then I'll sell it.
I guess I was expecting it to be amazing and give a noticeable difference over OEM seeing as lots of people say what a good upgrade it is.
We will see what we can do next time your down..... Remember last time you was running the turbo N75 duty flat out across the whole rpm range and only made 214bhp... There are many factors to tuning, 3-5mm pre load on the actuator and a map tweak could get you closer to 255bhp as I found out the other day and that was on a stock filter.
Thanks Nick.
I think for now I should shut up :ashamed: and go back to my stock intake and i'll bring all the bits with me on the 24th and see how we get on.
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These kind of threads are for the good and benefit of all of us :notworthy:
Nick what do you think of the forge actuator?
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These kind of threads are for the good and benefit of all of us :notworthy:
Nick what do you think of the forge actuator?
Thanks. tbh it has been the best part of an afternoon messing about swapping it over and logging... although im not sure how informative my logs are in reality?
Also.. you are right.. Till tonight I was still under the impression that an intake, whether it be forge or itg etc, was a top priority mod for any stage of remap even stock maps.
If it only adds less than 5 bhp and 5lbft for instance then for £300+ some may not consider it a worth while mod compared to the 10-15bhp that some people seem to claim.
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I have been led to believe that its a culmination of a remap, aftermarket air intake, and good exhaust system that any real gains will b seen, ie they all help each other to produce results! That said, I really feel that it was my TBE and remap that produce the biggest gains, with my Twintake being a nice 'optional extra'!
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Itg must have added quite abit more for me as when I first had a remap i only made 237 bhp on stage 1.then I had pre cat taken out and added itg intake and got back to Rtech for another power run and made 256 bhp. Now unless I gained 17 bhp just from pre cat the intake must have added a fair few horses. Oh and 256 bhp was made b4 any map tweaks.
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Can I add my Tupence?
I first fitted a BDM Intake (basically a ITG Maxogen copy). I took it off as I felt the car at 2+ was just tooooo mental. I also had a Decat Pipewerx DP to standard.
I then felt the urge again and bought a Forge Twintake which was sooooo loud and was not allowing my car to run right so again I took it off.
I then bought a used ITG Maxogen which I would say was the same as the BDM (obviously) maybe a little quieter.
When I had the BDM it MAFed at 330bhp which I would say is about right 9-5-9 settings. THS IC may be helping with that.
BUT.......the noise was unbearable. If it was a track car yes maybe ok.
I have enquired to VWR about the enclosed ITG and have been offered to go out in one of their cars which I am going to do as they are fairly local.
I now run the Pipercross Panel. I would say this is perfect for road use. In my opinion the car FEELS better not so 'blown' out?
I think the noise was affecting the outcome maybe?
The worst IMHO, ill repeat IMHO, was the Forge. Hated it. Car felt slower and the noise OMG!
I am looking forward to seeing/hearing the new ITG.
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Itg must have added quite abit more for me as when I first had a remap i only made 237 bhp on stage 1.then I had pre cat taken out and added itg intake and got back to Rtech for another power run and made 256 bhp. Now unless I gained 17 bhp just from pre cat the intake must have added a fair few horses. Oh and 256 bhp was made b4 any map tweaks.
Combination of things , mapping and pre-cat removal, weather and time of year on the dyno.
What filter was you running prior to the ITG?
What I am saying is that we run a stock car with stock air box and filter then fitted £300+ induction kits and there would be very little or no peak power gains. Same with stage 1 TFSi setups
run the car back to back with the stock filter and an £300 induction kit we will only ever see 4-5bhp at points is the midrange but nothing really on the peak numbers. We see the same results at stage1 with a £35 pipercrosss filter. If the air is cooler then the engine is going to be more efficient and help keep the peak numbers consistent
Now when going to stage2 and above to the point where the stock air box is limiting the peak air flow and the turbo is at the high end of the VE band at high rpms, then with the induction kits we start to see nice peak power gains on dyno graph and via the air flow logs.
The effect people can feel is the turbo spooling faster down low and moving the torque band and a few hp added to the avg power number
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Dont expecting big peak bhp number from any induction kits.. if your expecting to take a stage1 car from 240bhp to 255bhp peak just from filter, it just aint never going to happen.
If anyone or company wants to test an induction kit on our dyno and via logging I am more than willing to provide the dyno time for free.
Copy and paste from Golf gti forum.
This is when we tested a kit for Pipercross and they expected to see 14bhp+ gains stock and at stage 1.
Ever the pessimist, I wasn't going to believe it until I saw it and today I had the chance to do just that!
http://www.pipercross.net/fastroad/products_venom.asp
Ignore the red pipe, the kit we tried today was all tasteful black and by far the most OEM looking off-the-shelf CAI i've ever seen. It also took less than 10 minutes to fit. They've made a special effort to make it match the existing finish of the plastics in the mk4 bay.
The victim was a 2001 1.8T GTI (AUM) - Ben's old motor, so we knew it was a 'good un' and was put back to standard when he sold it other than a remap and DV, so we could get a fair test on a standard motor rather than use my loony 1.8t
We did a session of 3 dyno runs and a held load test with the car in 4 different states of tune. After each session the engine was allowed to cool until the inlet manifold was cold to the touch, IAT reported 21 degrees at idle and the coolant was at 40 degrees then warmed to 84 degrees at the start each batch of testing. The man from Pipercross looked upset when the numbers came up on the rolling road computer, his face was priceless. But I'd been watching the data and knew there was a lot more to the story, and anyone who has been to the R-Tech workshop has probably had the lecture on average horsepower vs. peak horsepower. However here are the peak figures for you to chuckle at!
Stock filter/airbox and stock mapping. - 160 bhp
Stock filter/airbox and Spec 1 mapping.- 210 bhp
Pipercross venom and stock mapping. - 161 bhp
Pipercross venom and Spec 1 mapping. - 210 bhp
Looks pretty pointless, no? To be honest it's what I was expecting, especially with an engine/ecu that i know so well. Our VW's are too well designed to be tricked into making more peak power with air filters, the ecu knows all the time exactly how much load is being worked and will compensate within it's efficiency to always hit the same numbers. Peak numbers are pub talk, how you get there.. the average figure, is what makes a quick car. Average bhp between 2200rpm and 6800rpm was increased by about 5bhp with the CAI, whether remapped or not, and that's a lot for a simple bolt on air filter.
While Nick was showing the slightly-happier-by-this-point Pipercross dude how the average bhp is calculated by the sportdyno software I went away to find in the logs what was going on to cause this change. It didn't take long to see what was going on once the intake air temperature and measured air mass graphs were overlaid. With the Pipercross kit installed, the intake temperatures reached were decreased by as much as 9°C compared to the stock airbox on power runs and as much as 15°C under held load. That's maximum stress, the equivalent of towing a caravan up a steep hill at 5500rpm in 4th gear. Ambient air temps were between 5 - 8 °C all day thanks to the blizzard. The more efficient burn (particularly in low revs) was allowing a bit more punch between 2000 - 3500 rpm thanks to the ecu adapting timing which gave the boost in average bhp, and as an added bonus (ME7.5 ecu's only for this next part.. sorry AGU boys ) once approaching peak the fuel injection was being altered to suit and fuel consumption was noticeably decreased at high revs!
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Dont expecting big peak bhp number from any induction kits.. if your expecting to take a stage1 car from 240bhp to 255bhp peak just from filter, it just aint never going to happen.
....True if only adding a high-flow tubular induction kit. But it's a different story when combined with a Stage 2 remap and a TBE high-flow performance exhaust. < Perhaps this is what you are saying.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9988.0.html
:happy2:
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You say it makes the turbo spool earlier. Well on a couple of runs I did the boost actually came in later than with the stock air box?
This backs up what I've seen in a couple of posts now where people say the itg felt a bit laggy at the low end.
All this also goes directly against red robins findings when he fitted his twintake and he is only stage 1?
Im very confused now. :confused: <<< see... thats my confused face!
All I can say for certain is that at present the itg doesnt 'feel' much quicker on my car (although ive been chopping and changing so much and resetting the ecu that maybe it needs to settle again), it makes a horrible noise that IMO is not acceptable for an intake, and the mpg has dropped 5-7mpg on average runs where I'm not pushing very hard.
My own logging has shown a small increase in airflow g/s across the rev range, between 4-10g/s although the itg g/s was very up and down compared to the smooth increasing line of the stock box. Also the boost seemed to dip in the low revs (below 2500rpm) with the itg compared to stock but then it seemed to hold boost longer in the higher revs.
All of the power increases (or lack of) are pointless though if I / ITG cant stop the whistle and if thats just a side effect of any intake then I'll stay stock
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I had an ITG on my Octavia vRS at stage 1 and the difference was very very noticable. Might be worth RTEc doing a full health check on your car because something doesnt sound right.
What a few of the guys said about the big gains being noticeable at higher stages of tune is correct as well. The stock airbox has a limit which is much lower than the uprated intakes so gains get bigger the higher the stage of tune or more aggressive the tune.
Robin was REVO stage 2 BTW with full Miltek TBE when he fitted the twintake. Also bear in mind that it wasnt just a direct fit. JKM also altered his REVO settings to accommodate the intake to its best capability.
Id say the figures below are the norm on an accurate rolling road
Stage 1 235-240hp
stage 1 with intake 240-245hp
stage 2 with TBE + stock intake 245-255hp
stage 2 with TBE + intake 255-265Hp
Stage 2+ with TBE, HPFP + stock intake 260-270Hp
Stage 2+ with TBE, HPFP + intake 275-285Hp.
Its all dependant on how aggressive or mild your map is as well. If your map isnt pushing the car much, the intake might not produce the same amount of results/gains.
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All this also goes directly against red robins findings when he fitted his twintake and he is only stage 1?
....No, as Sy says, I was at Revo Stage 2 when my Twintake was fitted (and I already had the Milltek TBE for years while both standard and Revo Stage 1).
And also as Sy says, JKM altered my Revo settings to accommodate the intake and to stop the likelihood of my OEM fuel pump struggling and consequently creating lag and/or fuel cuts. Now I have an APR pump, JKM has upped my Revo 2 settings. It's all in the Twintake review thread I wrote.
Anyway, that's perhaps not directly related to this thread about the enclosed filter ITG Maxogen.
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not sure if i should post here or start ANOTHER itg thread :sad1:
Still not loving the ITG. MPG still terrible. Drove over to a friends last night and made sure i drove really carefully. Its about 15 miles, bit of A road and dual carriage way. I just cruised over at about 60-75mph all the way. 25mpg again.
So far ive used over 3/4 of a tank and only got 185 miles.
After my first R-Tech visit but BEFORE the ITG I was getting 30+ on a run and got 340 miles to a tank (more than I've ever had with this car) and the car felt awesome and I was pushing it a lot.
So something is not adapting correctly with the ITG surely?
Tempted to just remove it and sell now... but would like to get the the bottom of certain noises and see if it really can help performance on a stage 1 when I revisit R-Tech next week.
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Do you know what your map is requesting from the fuel pump?
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Do you know what your map is requesting from the fuel pump?
not sure. Which vagcom block would it be. Maybe i logged it the other day.. if not i could pop out and log it today
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The only time my fuel economy went down was when I went 2+.
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The only time my fuel economy went down was when I went 2+.
Well like I said. After R-Tech mapped it but with the stock air filter set up it was lovely and nice and economical.
So possibly its not adapting well to the ITG on its own and its just chucking loads of extra fuel in there?
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Shame they are on holiday aren't they?
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Shame they are on holiday aren't they?
Yeah. I'm booked to go back on the 24th anyway so I might just refit the stock until then.
Did you manage to go listen to the enclosed intake?
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I personally cant see the ITG being at fault. Maybe the map hasnt got enough adaptability in it to accommodate the extra flow of air. My car with the bluefin map and ITG wasnt the best either.
I had the prototype vRS ITG intake fitted to mine but with a bigger filter at ITG HQ by Andy. The car was running Bluefin stage 2 at the time. The car didnt run right whilst the ECU was adjusting itself, it was really on/off in its power delivery like it was over/underfueling repeatedly. It got better over about 50miles.
This was later changed to Shark software which i had in stage 1, 2 and 2+ guises and there were no such issues with power delivery.
Before i sold up i reverted the car back to stage 1 shark performance map with ITG. Randomly i was given a Pipercross venom intake by another forum member. I logged the Stock v Pipercross v ITG one after another that day and found the Pipercross actually was more restrictive than the stock intake, whilst the ITG gained 18g/s iirc over the stock intake.
I think RTEC need to have a look at it tbh. The filter flows enough air for guys running stage 2+ on K04 TFSIs, so its not likely that it would struggle on a stage 1 K03.
Sy
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I personally cant see the ITG being at fault. Maybe the map hasnt got enough adaptability in it to accommodate the extra flow of air. My car with the bluefin map and ITG wasnt the best either.
I had the prototype vRS ITG intake fitted to mine but with a bigger filter at ITG HQ by Andy. The car was running Bluefin stage 2 at the time. The car didnt run right whilst the ECU was adjusting itself, it was really on/off in its power delivery like it was over/underfueling repeatedly. It got better over about 50miles.
This was later changed to Shark software which i had in stage 1, 2 and 2+ guises and there were no such issues with power delivery.
Before i sold up i reverted the car back to stage 1 shark performance map with ITG. Randomly i was given a Pipercross venom intake by another forum member. I logged the Stock v Pipercross v ITG one after another that day and found the Pipercross actually was more restrictive than the stock intake, whilst the ITG gained 18g/s iirc over the stock intake.
I think RTEC need to have a look at it tbh. The filter flows enough air for guys running stage 2+ on K04 TFSIs, so its not likely that it would struggle on a stage 1 K03.
Sy
oh yeah im not suggesting its the ITG or its struggling.
Im just saying that it isn't working well on my car as a plug and play item at the moment.
At the same time its not R-Techs fault. My car felt the best its ever felt after they mapped it with the stock air box.
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Do you know what your map is requesting from the fuel pump?
not sure. Which vagcom block would it be. Maybe i logged it the other day.. if not i could pop out and log it today
Log block 230 for actual vs requested fuel rail pressure. :smiley:
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Do you know what your map is requesting from the fuel pump?
not sure. Which vagcom block would it be. Maybe i logged it the other day.. if not i could pop out and log it today
Log block 230 for actual vs requested fuel rail pressure. :smiley:
I already logged actual rail pressure with the open filter. Do i need both requested and actual though?
http://u55158955@s300610021.websitehome.co.uk/UtilityImages/ITG%20open%20log.xls
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When I had my last fr k03 I bought an itg kept it on about 3 weeks I found the noise fairly annoying but power was poor below 3000rpm it was like the car was bogging down between 1800rpm and 3000rpm and that was running Revo software although the car did pull harder higher up the rev range.
As already said it seemed to be a trade off for low down drivability for high revs power.
I went back to a panel filter and the car was much livelier under normal driving.
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I fitted an intake but it made the power move higher up. That is okay for track day cars but for a road car it is a pain as you lose the low end grunt. I asked Nick from R Tech regarding the OE airbox and going to Stage 2+. This was his reply below
The ED30 makes good power with easy due to turbine volumetric efficiency and increased flow outward bounds. The ED30s tune to 300bhp with easy with just the stock paper filters in place. I cannot see the stock air box with a good air filter being too much of an issue for 275-280bhp on a k03. If your going HFPF then a lot of the power gain comes from combustion efficiency and room to run more timing.
So I switched back to the OE box and the car runs much better than with an intake. Plus the intake was too noisy for my liking. I am now of the opinion that VW have invested millions into R&D and know there stuff when it comes to this and what works for the engine. I have tried different modified parts and have now gone totally OE parts again on the engine, apart from the exhaust, panel air filter and boost hoses. The cars drives much smoother and performs loads better :happy2:
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^^^^
VW have invested millions into R&D with the aim of producing a quiet car which satisfies an average generic customer, not mad enthusiasts like many of us here. I don't like it quiet! I want to hear what's going on under my bonnet and elsewhere.
All I can say is that my Revo Stage 2 K03 car with a Twintake makes more power and runs even better than it did with stock intake. Even running a Carbonio scoop improved torque and response although by a very small percentage.
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Ive removed it. The MPG was shocking and the whistle was embarrassing.
The enclosed filter gets rid of all the darth vader noises of the open filter and as far as I can tell from logging the car it performs the same as the open intake.
However for me, right now the loss in MPG and the whistle is completely unacceptable.
I'll keep the bits and take them to R-Tech and still try to diagnose the whistle and see what Nick says about fitting it for added power but the last time I spoke to him he had found a new tweak for the KO3 that he was keen to try and if this proves effective on my car with the standard air box I'll be happy with that.
I bought the ITG (I guess the same would apply for the twintake etc) thinking it would instantly add 10-15bhp to my car. I hadn't really appreciated that these gains were only on stage2+ and KO4 cars though so for my KO3 stage 1 i'd have to say it seems a bit of a waste unfortunately.
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I bought the ITG (I guess the same would apply for the twintake etc) thinking it would instantly add 10-15bhp to my car. I hadn't really appreciated that these gains were only on stage2+ and KO4 cars though so for my KO3 stage 1 i'd have to say it seems a bit of a waste unfortunately.
....Please understand that I totally understand and respect your preferences and decisions when I say that adding a Twintake to my Revo Stage 2 K03 GTI added 15.5 bhp according to back-to-back same day dyno @ JKM. My mods include a TBE Milltek. I was on stock fuel pump at the time (now APR).
It's all written up with plots in my first post: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9988.0.html
I'm still interested in R-Tech Nick's findings about the whistle. :happy2:
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I bought the ITG (I guess the same would apply for the twintake etc) thinking it would instantly add 10-15bhp to my car. I hadn't really appreciated that these gains were only on stage2+ and KO4 cars though so for my KO3 stage 1 i'd have to say it seems a bit of a waste unfortunately.
....Please understand that I totally understand and respect your preferences and decisions when I say that adding a Twintake to my Revo Stage 2 K03 GTI added 15.5 bhp according to back-to-back same day dyno @ JKM. My mods include a TBE Milltek. I was on stock fuel pump at the time (now APR).
It's all written up with plots in my first post: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9988.0.html
I'm still interested in R-Tech Nick's findings about the whistle. :happy2:
Oh yeah... I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone saying I was given bad info. I'm just saying I hadn't fully appreciated that it would give far less of a gain on a stage 1 KO3 car.
I think I've also been unlucky with the ECU not adapting well and causing low MPG and the blasted whistle that makes you shy away from full throttle.
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Whistle + poor mpg sounds like an air leak between the afm and turbo.
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Whistle + poor mpg sounds like an air leak between the afm and turbo.
the whistle is one thats well documented with other itg and forge intakes.
I re installed the system 3 times in all and even put silicon around the maf making sure there were no air leaks anywhere.
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I do sympathise with you Jedi. I went to R Tech roughly same time last mth, literally a few days after having a BCS Exhaust system and Twintake! I too have a whistle with mine sumtimes, although not as prevalent as yrs by all accounts! I was told by Nick that my average mpg should improve, and sure enough, plodding along I can get it up to 33, 34 perhaps, but give it sum right foot, and bang, down she goes swiftly! I think thats y Nick wants us bak a 2nd time, so he can perhaps adjust the fuelling accordingly! Lets face it thou, our cars are much faster now, so of course we will notice a drop in fuel efficiency, lol!! All this is so subjective IMHO, if we can somehow prove that a stock intake, plus a TBE, plus remap stage 1 or 2 = more power than above with aftermarket air intake, then I shall revert bak instantly!? Im bak with Nick on Saturday wk, so mite take all my stock intake with me, compare it with my Twintake, but these debates do really thrill me!! ;-)
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I've kinda accepted the avg of 27-28mpg my car does nowadays. But it's been around that level from day 1. Never been near te claimed combined 35mpg average by VW! :sad1:
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As Ive said b4 itg and pre cat delete added 17 bhp to my car at stage 1 so wouldn't say there's nothing to be gained. :driver:
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Is this 'pre cat delete' physically removing something from the full TBE or am I missing summit here?? :-o
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I also don't get the whistle that others are on about with itg and never have heard it. If I haven,t got this whistle this must mean it can be stopped :wink:
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I do sympathise with you Jedi. I went to R Tech roughly same time last mth, literally a few days after having a BCS Exhaust system and Twintake! I too have a whistle with mine sumtimes, although not as prevalent as yrs by all accounts! I was told by Nick that my average mpg should improve, and sure enough, plodding along I can get it up to 33, 34 perhaps, but give it sum right foot, and bang, down she goes swiftly! I think thats y Nick wants us bak a 2nd time, so he can perhaps adjust the fuelling accordingly! Lets face it thou, our cars are much faster now, so of course we will notice a drop in fuel efficiency, lol!! All this is so subjective IMHO, if we can somehow prove that a stock intake, plus a TBE, plus remap stage 1 or 2 = more power than above with aftermarket air intake, then I shall revert bak instantly!? Im bak with Nick on Saturday wk, so mite take all my stock intake with me, compare it with my Twintake, but these debates do really thrill me!! ;-)
I fear this is straying off the original subject so may start my 33rd thread on intakes.... :signLOL:
Basically like I said the enclosed canister seems to do its job and silences the darth vader noises which still producing the same airflow.
The problem I have is separate to this issue and is with the ITG as a whole (possibly intakes in general.. I wont know till I test the twintake).
Why some people get the whistle / screech noise and soe dont is puzzling.
The intake is also solely responsible for a 5+mpg drop on a cruise as far as I can tell. I ran the stock airbox after the R-tech map and all was fine on a cruise seeing low 30sMPG and even when 'testing' the map :driver: It didnt drop below 25mpg average for a fast journey.
My car seems not to be adapting to the extra air very well though hence its poor MPG numbers after fitting the intake. Maybe this is something that Nick changed on my car and it worked well with the amount of air it had at the time.. maybe not?
I prefer low down torque though and I think my preferred option is now to get the car running as nicely as possible on the stock airbox regardless of if the ITG ends up giving an extra 5-10 bhp once Nick has re tweaked the map to suit it.
Id rather sacrifice those few extra BHP and have the car torquey from as low an RPM as possible and not have to endure the embarrassing whistle / screech.
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Is this 'pre cat delete' physically removing something from the full TBE or am I missing summit here?? :-o
its knocking out the cat material that sits right in the opening of the top of the downpipe.
I did this and then ran the car for 100 miles or so, so I am sure this in itself did not cause the poor mpg or whistle / screech. This is confirmed when I refitted the stock air box the noise disappeared and the MPG went back up.
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As I've said I've tried most intakes including twintake and the itg on my last k03 car and also my current k04 car.
All I can say is for some reason the noise made on the k03 car was much noisier and annoying than you get on a k04.
The whistling screech noise I always experienced with my itg and pflow from memory and I'm sure it was approx 3000 rpm.
At the time I done some research and found lots of info on the fitting and that how far you positioned the silicone joiners over the pipework caused the noise in question.
To be fair I played around with my itg and I did get it better but not perfect.
As for mpg on normal driving my mpg never altered but when driving hard and also in winter months mpg does drop by 2 or 3 miles.
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As I've said I've tried most intakes including twintake and the itg on my last k03 car and also my current k04 car.
All I can say is for some reason the noise made on the k03 car was much noisier and annoying than you get on a k04.
The whistling screech noise I always experienced with my itg and pflow from memory and I'm sure it was approx 3000 rpm.
At the time I done some research and found lots of info on the fitting and that how far you positioned the silicone joiners over the pipework caused the noise in question.
To be fair I played around with my itg and I did get it better but not perfect.
As for mpg on normal driving my mpg never altered but when driving hard and also in winter months mpg does drop by 2 or 3 miles.
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I did actually wonder if it was to do with air hitting the end of the pipes, but I tried moving them around a bit with no luck.
Also it doesn't explain why the noise happens on KO3 but never (very rarely) on KO4 when its the same pipe work.
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Wat on earth is the cat material, lol?
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Wat on earth is the cat material, lol?
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,41083.0.html
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I did actually wonder if it was to do with air hitting the end of the pipes, but I tried moving them around a bit with no luck.
Also it doesn't explain why the noise happens on KO3 but never (very rarely) on KO4 when its the same pipe work.
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Yeah I know exactly what your saying it strange why k03 cars are noisier than k04s
Doesn't help you though.
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All this is so subjective IMHO, if we can somehow prove that a stock intake, plus a TBE, plus remap stage 1 or 2 = more power than above with aftermarket air intake, then I shall revert bak instantly!?
I dont think its a case of more power, its a case of engine response. My engine performs better with the OE intake than when I had an aftermarket intake fitted on a stage 2+map. Sometimes more BHP is not the best, as it is how responsive the engine is. The intake moves the power higher up the rev range so you have to rev it more to get the best. I found the intake on the car actually dulled the driving experience, as it felt flat at the bottom end and not very quick. I take the approach that MINES do with their cars. Not going for big BHP but going for a car that is responsive.
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There are no adaptions to really take place, when fitting a induction kit. Blocks 032 will show the trims and I am sure they will be well with in 10%+/-
The issues with induction kit is its allowing the turbo to spool faster on part load/throttle (part throttle speeds up air flow via the turbo) driving and the ecu is adding the correct fuel to meet the lambda value of 1 for light load driving. You wont find the car over fueling or running rich.
Just long term driving at part load the MAF is seeing more air per cycle and more fuel is needed. nothing much can be done in the mapping as the map at part load will already be at lambda 1.
The fuel maps only change at.
1, when runing evevated egts under full load over x amount of load. (at the extream these maps run LEANER close to .81 vs the .71 stock
2, 90% load request over 3000rpm the lambda will come down to .89 for the torque band and .83 from 4500rpm for the power band.
So part load driving 0% upto 89% load request the ecu is set to lambda 1 upto 4000rpm then 4000rpm to 6520rpm .95 to .90.
The only way around it is go for a 1:1 ratio linear throttle map trying to reduce part throttle load request, We have done this with a few Focus STs and gained around 50miles extra per tank. :wink:
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Couldnt agree more Nick, lol!!
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Just had the new ITG fitted on my TSI Octavia....waaay less 'darth vader' that the Open ITG on my TFSI. I love it!
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I have had my share of problems also with the ITG open filter. 2 years ago I bought it for my Leon Cupra (k04) and my driveability and mpg suffered like have been discussed here. I complained about this to ITG, but they wouldnt want to listen to me :fighting: When the air flow meter is installed in their MAF section, the meter doesnt even sit on the dead center of the pipe like it does with original airbox. ITG just commented that it seems to work fine like this.. yeah right. Air flow meter even blocks more air now going to the turbo so I fail to see their logic in designing it like this. Maybe they have fixed this? Its been about 2 years now since I bought mine.
Well I ended up twisting the MAF section around to a different angle to see if the air flows are different in other location of the pipe, this made a considerable change how to how the car behaved. The low end grunt got back and mpg was almost normal. I was happy enough with it in the end, even with its design flaw.
Im currently driving a mkv GTI and fitted the same intake. From the start if has worked a lot better then with Leon. All I did was clean and reoil the filter (I didnt even use ITG stuff). Last time I checked my fuel trims, they were both almost zero. Stock airbox was at about -3 IIRC, so very close and I havent really noticed any problems in driveablity or mpg, only more power and sound. With precat delete I seem to be getting quite good mileage combined with Revo stage 2.
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Is there much power loss wit the enclosed filter ?