MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Tortaruga on July 17, 2012, 10:43:56 am
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I've been thinking (for once!).
VW put a KO3 in the standard GTI to give 197hp. For the Ed30 & Pirelli they upgraded to a KO4 to produce 230hp.
Now VW obviously did plenty of r&d and testing so you have to ask why did they put a larger, more expensive turbo into the special editions? As well as upgrade other internals to handle the extra power, all adding to the cost (yet they didn't upgrade the brakes!)? I'm asking this because many of us have mapped the KO3 to 240hp or so with a stage 1. Surely VW must have looked at this as they could then have produced the Ed30/Pirelli for much less, but still charged a premium. VW must have tested and realised that going to 230hp on the standard GTI was too much and compromised the car somehow.
I would hazard a guess that the average punter who bought a new Ed30 or Pirelli didn't have a clue that there was a different turbo, etc. They bought it for looks, exclusivity and the extra bit of poke over the standard GTI; extra poke that can easily be obtained by a changed map as we (and VW) know. Yet VW's engineers didn't do this and I would surmise that VW's engineers know a little bit more about their engines than most aftermarket tuners. I wonder if Bosch wouldn't agree to a different map? (I'm sure that's rubbish-correct me if I'm wrong).
I suppose I'm trying to understand what the compromises were that made VW upgrade the turbo for a relatively modest power increase and whether all our remapped KO3's are going to have problems in future.
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I've been thinking (for once!).
VW put a KO3 in the standard GTI to give 197hp. For the Ed30 & Pirelli they upgraded to a KO4 to produce 230hp.
Now VW obviously did plenty of r&d and testing so you have to ask why did they put a larger, more expensive turbo into the special editions? As well as upgrade other internals to handle the extra power, all adding to the cost (yet they didn't upgrade the brakes!)? I'm asking this because many of us have mapped the KO3 to 240hp or so with a stage 1. Surely VW must have looked at this as they could then have produced the Ed30/Pirelli for much less, but still charged a premium. VW must have tested and realised that going to 230hp on the standard GTI was too much and compromised the car somehow.
I would hazard a guess that the average punter who bought a new Ed30 or Pirelli didn't have a clue that there was a different turbo, etc. They bought it for looks, exclusivity and the extra bit of poke over the standard GTI; extra poke that can easily be obtained by a changed map as we (and VW) know. Yet VW's engineers didn't do this and I would surmise that VW's engineers know a little bit more about their engines than most aftermarket tuners. I wonder if Bosch wouldn't agree to a different map? (I'm sure that's rubbish-correct me if I'm wrong).
I suppose I'm trying to understand what the compromises were that made VW upgrade the turbo for a relatively modest power increase and whether all our remapped KO3's are going to have problems in future.
When car manufacturers design an engine, they have to design it to cater to multiple markets with their different climates, fuel quality, emissions regulations etc and to be as reliable as possible for the "dumb" motorist not to have to worry about it beyond the standard service intervals. That design is, by design :laugh:, as generic as it gets, and therefore nowhere near it's potential if it was tweaked to best match the factors surrounding the driver, which is what a remap does.
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The decision will have been ultimately made by the VAG bean counters based on cost and production reasons...
The special editions needed more poke...they already had a proven motor with more poke in the guise of the S3 k04 lump, no further R&D / type testing costs etc and easily detuned to fit the application required, simples :smiley:
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For normal driving, these cars brakes Are adequate.If you drive like a hoon, and drive too enthusiastically, then the brakes will eventually start to faid.
For track use. Then all VW's calculations will not be taken into account as these cars are designed to driven on the public highway.
VW in my mind got it spot on, and still continue to use these brakes on the mk6. So I'm sure after 8 years of usage that if these were not safe, then they would of beefed them up long ago.
Imo
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Come on Steve get some BIG brakes , you know it makes sense :O
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The decision will have been ultimately made by the VAG bean counters based on cost
But that's my point. Surely the bean counters would've wanted to just remap the ECU to 230hp. Much cheaper than doing what they did!
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Come on Steve get some BIG brakes , you know it makes sense :O
as much as I like a good "snatch" I prefer to keep that away from my car :wink:
:laugh:
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For normal driving, these cars brakes Are adequate.If you drive like a hoon, and drive too enthusiastically, then the brakes will eventually start to faid.
For track use. Then all VW's calculations will not be taken into account as these cars are designed to driven on the public highway.
VW in my mind got it spot on, and still continue to use these brakes on the mk6. So I'm sure after 8 years of usage that if these were not safe, then they would of beefed them up long ago.
Imo
The standard GTi brakes are shocking... even coming from a Mk5 R32 which is heavier, the brakes are loads better... the Ed30 should have had these as standard and look forward to seeing what the Scirocco R brakes are like once fitted...
Plus they limited the ed30 to 230bhp cos they put the cheapskate GTi's intercooler in for a start...
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Speed doesn't necessitate bigger brakes, weight does. Therefore if VW felt the standard GTI brakes were sufficient (and I'd say they are for normal driving) and the Edition 30 weighs no more, then why would they upgrade them?
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Speed doesn't necessitate bigger brakes, weight does. Therefore if VW felt the standard GTI brakes were sufficient (and I'd say they are for normal driving) and the Edition 30 weighs no more, then why would they upgrade them?
So if travelling faster you don't need bigger brakes to stop quicker in the same distance as a car travelling slower with the same brakes?
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The standard GTi brakes are shocking...
In what circumstances?
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The standard GTi brakes are shocking...
In what circumstances?
When you put your foot on the brake pedal...
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Speed doesn't necessitate bigger brakes, weight does. Therefore if VW felt the standard GTI brakes were sufficient (and I'd say they are for normal driving) and the Edition 30 weighs no more, then why would they upgrade them?
So if travelling faster you don't need bigger brakes to stop quicker in the same distance as a car travelling slower with the same brakes?
People seem to think that because the Edition 30 is marginally faster it deserves better brakes. They gave the R32 bigger brakes because it weighs more, and therefore needs more braking power to stop.
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The standard GTi brakes are shocking...
In what circumstances?
When you put your foot on the brake pedal...
If you're driving within the laws of this country then the brakes are perfectly ample.
It continually amazes me how people here think the GTI is some sort of hardcore performance car that needs massive brakes.
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The standard GTi brakes are shocking...
In what circumstances?
When you put your foot on the brake pedal...
:grin:
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The standard GTi brakes are shocking...
In what circumstances?
When you put your foot on the brake pedal...
If you're driving within the laws of this country then the brakes are perfectly ample.
It continually amazes me how people here think the GTI is some sort of hardcore performance car that needs massive brakes.
When you get to the stage of 300+bhp of which the ED30 is easily capable, then it needs better brakes as it can get to speeds quicker than a standard GTi, and I would prefer to be able to brake quicker if anything required me to do so...
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The decision will have been ultimately made by the VAG bean counters based on cost
But that's my point. Surely the bean counters would've wanted to just remap the ECU to 230hp. Much cheaper than doing what they did!
I'd have to disagree tbh, each engine built will have a unit cost to VW and I'd speculate that the difference in cost based on the sheer volume of each type of engine they produce means that it was more cost effective to drop in a k04 lump rather than have the time and cost involved in developing a bespoke 230 version of the 200 engine..
From the VAG point of view why go to the added cost of 'tuning' the k03 version and all the type approval testing for all the various customer markets around the globe when they had the 'right' engine being built in the thousands anyway?
Regarding the cost comparison of the 2 different engines, it's worth remembering that there are no extra parts in a k04 engine compared to a k03, just different ones.. :wink:
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The standard GTi brakes are shocking...
In what circumstances?
When you put your foot on the brake pedal...
If you're driving within the laws of this country then the brakes are perfectly ample.
It continually amazes me how people here think the GTI is some sort of hardcore performance car that needs massive brakes.
When you get to the stage of 300+bhp of which the ED30 is easily capable, then it needs better brakes as it can get to speeds quicker than a standard GTi, and I would prefer to be able to brake quicker if anything required me to do so...
Ah, so we're talking about a tuned 300bhp Edition 30 now are we?! My mistake, I thought the OP was asking why it didn't have bigger brakes fresh from the factory :wink:
Either way, the point stands. An Edition 30 travelling at 70mph needs no more braking power to stop than a standard GTI travelling the same speed.
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Any car at any speed will benefit from being able to stop / slow down more efficiently
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Any car at any speed will benefit from being able to stop / slow down more efficiently
^^^ my point exactly...
Why give a car more power Albeit 30bhp in the first place if it's not going to encourage a sportier drive... if you can get to a higher speed(within law abiding limits) by distance 'A', which at something pulls/jumps out in front of you, you will be traveling faster, and hence need to brake harder to stop by distance 'B'... which is why I feel it needs better brakes...
But anyway, I just feel they are weak compare to the R32... in terms of stopping from 70mph in either a gti or a gti edition 30.
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Any car at any speed will benefit from being able to stop / slow down more efficiently
Why give a car more power Albeit 30bhp...
Exactly. In real terms how much difference does that make within legal speeds. Not much I'd bet. 0.4 seconds to 60...
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Yeah but that could be the difference of say 5mph, which to equates to so many metres extra stopping distance and whether you hit/stop in time...
All imo of course... An obviously not enough to VW to worry or swallow extra cost of putting the R brakes on...
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Any car at any speed will benefit from being able to stop / slow down more efficiently
....Exactly! Far better to have 'big' brakes and not need them very often than to need them and not have them!
It's not a matter of "hooning about" as SaintSteve says, nor "driving within the law" as Andrew says:
@ Steve:
Were we hooning on those B-roads when you said you nearly rear-ended me? - I thought we were just enjoying driving our cars on some B-road twisties. Plus I have been in convoy with you many times and you love to have fun safely as much as the rest of us. :happy2:
@ Andrew (Parker):
Believe me, there are plenty of roads in my neck of the woods (and elsewhere) where you can drive fast and safely without breaking the law. Having a balanced and good braking power adds to the fun and is much safer.
It's well-known that standard VAG cars suffer from poor brake pedal feel. As said by others earlier, cars like the Golf are designed very generically - We are not seen as the same sort of customers/end-users who buy R8's and Porsches etc. Cost and profit is a major factor too.
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Just adding S3 rear brakes (to my AP Racing fronts) made a very noticeable difference - Braking is very evenly balanced and I'm constantly amazed at the braking power in wet or dry. Tyres play an important part of course.
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But people forget, the r32 brakes/S3 brakes are designed to work for a heavier Vehicle.
hence why the most common complaint that people say on the brake upgrade is Snatchy brakes.
sorry Andrew, almost ran out of thankyou's to give you :signLOL:
Glad someone else sees my point too :happy2:
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:indifferent:
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But people forget, the r32 brakes/S3 brakes are designed to work for a heavier Vehicle.
hence why the most common complaint that people say on the brake upgrade is Snatchy brakes.
....Agreed - The R32/S3 brakes are designed for a heavier car - That's partly why they are more effective than the GTI/Ed30 stock brakes.
Snatchiness is usually due to the brake kit design or its components - My AP Racing brakes have never ever been snatchy but then with a reputation like AP you wouldn't expect them to be.
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My Cupra weighs no more than an Edition 30 and has the same brakes as the S3 / R32 / R as standard
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A Fully laden Ed30 with 5 burly men and their luggage will weigh more than a R32 with it's driver... now who needs the bigger brakes stopping from 70mph?
Steve, glad you find the standard Gti brakes OK for your Edition 30 with Superchips Stage 2 map :signLOL:
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My Cupra weighs no more than an Edition 30 and has the same brakes as the S3 / R32 / R as standard
....To possibly better understand German Fritz's thinking, which car was launched first? - Your Cupra or the Ed30?
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I'd like to say the edition 30, they realised their mistake and gave the cupra decent brakes lol
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A Fully laden Ed30 with 5 burly men and their luggage will weigh more than a R32 with it's driver... now who needs the bigger brakes stopping from 70mph?
Yesterday I drove home from Nottingham with my daughter and with the car fully loaded up with her belongings including heavy books. In the wet most of the journey and braking was faultless and I did drive very enthusiastically at every opportunity the conditions allowed.
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:indifferent:
I agree.
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I'd like to say the edition 30, they realised their mistake and gave the cupra decent brakes lol
....That's precisely why I asked the question, Dom. :happy2:
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A Fully laden Ed30 with 5 burly men and their luggage will weigh more than a R32 with it's driver... now who needs the bigger brakes stopping from 70mph?
Yesterday I drove home from Nottingham with my daughter and with the car fully loaded up with her belongings including heavy books. In the wet most of the journey and braking was faultless and I did drive very enthusiastically at every opportunity the conditions allowed.
Did you take the UNIbrace XB out?
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I'd like to say the edition 30, they realised their mistake and gave the cupra decent brakes lol
....That's precisely why I asked the question, Dom. :happy2:
You set them up... I'll hit 'em... :happy2:
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:indifferent:
I agree.
Why comment then? lol I find the whole debate fascinating...
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:indifferent:
I agree.
....C'mon, Andrew - This is just a lively discussion and exchanging of opinions - Partly what forums are for.
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Yesterday I drove home from Nottingham with my daughter and with the car fully loaded up with her belongings including heavy books. In the wet most of the journey and braking was faultless and I did drive very enthusiastically at every opportunity the conditions allowed.
Did you take the UNIbrace XB out?
....No, I thought about removing it but slung a blanket over it to protect the paintwork and it served extremely well to restrain the load and stop it from moving. I didn't even need to use any bungee's.
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:indifferent:
I agree.
....C'mon, Andrew - This is just a lively discussion and exchanging of opinions - Partly what forums are for.
I know. I agree. Stop taking me so seriously.
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Yesterday I drove home from Nottingham with my daughter and with the car fully loaded up with her belongings including heavy books. In the wet most of the journey and braking was faultless and I did drive very enthusiastically at every opportunity the conditions allowed.
Did you take the UNIbrace XB out?
....No, I thought about removing it but slung a blanket over it to protect the paintwork and it served extremely well to restrain the load and stop it from moving. I didn't even need to use any bungee's.
That's cool then... feel another product review update coming on...
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A Fully laden Ed30 with 5 burly men and their luggage will weigh more than a R32 with it's driver... now who needs the bigger brakes stopping from 70mph?
Steve, glad you find the standard Gti brakes OK for your Edition 30 with Superchips Stage 2 map :signLOL:
They are perfectly fine, just takes a good safe driver to get the most from them :P
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So the Golf R... has the old R32 stoppers?
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:indifferent:
I agree.
....C'mon, Andrew - This is just a lively discussion and exchanging of opinions - Partly what forums are for.
I know. I agree. Stop taking me so seriously.
....With those uber cool Mesa orange Nike's, of course I take you seriously! :laugh: :happy2:
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Glad I'm not the only one who believes the mk5 brakes need improving :grin:
I got some stick for mentioning it here:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,50338.15.html
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i think the government should do something
it is totally unacceptable that in this day and age a family hatchback doesn't have carbon ceramic brakes
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^^^^ :signLOL:
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The Golf's brakes could be better, but then the type approval parameters by which they're selected I'd imagine only require a finite number of stops and not repeated hard use. In the use my car sees, the only time I've found the brakes particularly wanting is with a car trailer on the back, but then my pads are original at 5 years and 46k, and have half pad thickness remaining (must be driving too slow). I'd say the brakes are certainly no worse than comparable vehicles (330ci, Clio 182, Impreza, 130i, S15) I've driven recently. I wonder how many cars on this forum with original calipers and 312mm discs have decent quality consumables fitted.
Had there been an option from factory to have multi-piston caliper with floating discs, I wonder how many buyers would have ticked the box. I suspect many wouldn't and the marketing team know this. Very often (but clearly not in all cases) I suspect a GTI is not originally bought by an "enthusiast", but someone who likes the image of a Golf with a GTI badge. That said I wish there had been a factory option for uprated brakes and an ATB diff and that the first owner of my car selected them!
As for the engine debate, I'm suspecting engine type approval and OEM development costs meant it was easier to drop a detuned S3 engine into the E30 than bother to mess around with the K03 engine.