MK5 Golf GTI
General => Product Reviews => Topic started by: SteveP on July 02, 2009, 08:44:14 pm
-
Why: -
Well the intercooler is a key part of the forced induction system on a turbocharged engine. The way I understand it is an intercooler will decrease the air intake temperatures to provide a denser intake charge to the engine and allows more air and fuel to be combusted per engine cycle, increasing the output of the engine. As it keeps intake temperatures down it will also help prevent heat soak degrading engine performance when pushing on.
So like anything on the car once you step on the slippery slope of modifying the stock components will soon become stretched beyond their normal duty cycle.
Since going to Revo Stage 2 I had started to see some high intake temperatures (over 30c above ambient for example on a Rolling Road session).
So I thought it was time to invest in a new IC. Initially I was planning to go the S3 route but after seeing a test version of the THS intercooler on Revo's Leon K1 and from speaking with Carl and Martin @ Revo I thought it made more sense to try the THS intercooler.
Here are some side by side pictures of the new THS cooler and the old stock IC :smiley:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_40_59_14.jpg)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_40_56_10.JPG)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_40_52_2.jpg)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_40_55_7.jpg)
Here's the blurb on the IC from THS: -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thsperformance.co.uk%2Fpub%2Ffiles%2F.thumbnails%2F1246056893_tfsi-leaflet_w450_h400.jpg&hash=c6480f7b49cd3c6a26ecc2b9b2031019e9d46d88)
And a comparision on size with the stock and S3 IC's :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fn127%2Fnitroxneil%2FUntitled-1.png&hash=8fb4ffc5ad8e175c328c79e6e9339cd32dc7de45)
Sourcing: -
The intercooler is supplied directly by THS Performance: -
Website - www.thsperformance.co.uk
Email - sales@thsperformance.co.uk
Installation: -
Installation isn't a task for the faint hearted :scared:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_40_53_4.JPG)
As you can see all of the front end parts need to be removed to gain access to the stock IC.
I had mine installed by Neil and Ollie from THS as they are finishing the write-up for the installation manual so offered to do it as part of the purchase price :happy2:
Generally the installation was pretty painless (apart from when Ollie stabbed Neil with a a screwdriver in his arm where he had burnt it earlier that week :rolleye:).
In total it took just over 3 hours which considering we where taking photo's of every step wasn't too bad.
Here are some more installation photo's
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_41_01_17.JPG)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_40_58_12.jpg)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_41_00_15.jpg)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_40_56_8.JPG)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/gallery/4_02_07_09_8_40_54_6.JPG)
Once the physical installation was complete we took the car out for some post installation logging with VCDS connected.
Immediately the intake temps were well down on the old stock IC and showed better recovery of temperature after a few spirited runs :evilgrin:
I will be completing some more logging over the next few days so will post some more detailed results as soon as I can :happy2:
Plus Points: -
- Direct Replacement for the Stock IC
- All Alloy construction designed with the best possible air flow in mind
- Improved performance and reduced intake temperatures
Minus Points: -
Really none that I can think of really :happy2:
Summary: -
After having run the car for a few days/nearly 1000 miles on the IC (during the hottest days of the year so far!) I can really say I have been massively impressed with the difference this is making to the car.
It is really noticeable in the mid to top end power the car really pulls so much more now and despite my best efforts I am not feeling the effects of heat soak as much as I did before. :smiley:
Everything else about the car has remained as before (so no affect in fuel consumption etc).
Also I was really impressed with the way the kit was put together, previous from other manufactures I have seen simple things to make the installation easier aren't included, but the THS kit will be supplied with everything you need (for example even down to a cable tie in-case you have to cut the existing one on the bonnet release cable) and some bit like longer bolts to help temporarily support the front crash panel while removing the old IC.
So I would 100% say I would recommend this IC to any 2.0 TFSI owner as you will be really surprised at the difference it will make. :happy2:
Finally thanks to Neil & Ollie from THS for doing the installation on a Sunday morning while they where local to me (and to Neil's dad for the loan of the workshop) :drinking:
UPDATE
Data Logging Results: -
I have finally got around to doing some data logging with the IC installed. I tried I couple of scenarios to get an idea of how it performs in normal driving conditions.
So at the time of these tests my car is running: -
Revo Stage 2+ Code (B9 T6 F9)
KMD HPFP Kit
Milltek Turbo Back Exhaust
Test version of the VWR Direct Intake System that fits onto Standard Airbox
Test 1 - Fast Road Hard Acceleration
Outside Temp 17°c
So over a 15 minute period starting with the engine up to temp I logged the car over a few 1-2 mile stretches of Dual carriageway broken up by roundabouts where I tried hard acceleration (upto the national speed limit only).
The starting intake temp (as the car was idling for 5 minutes while setting up the laptop) was 38°c.
Immediately under the initial acceleration the temp dropped by 5°c to to 33°c.
At peak the maximum temp I recorded after about the 4th run of accelerating away from a roundabout at maximum revs in 3rd was 39°c. This would immediately drop as soon as you ease off when coming up to the next roundabout.
The average temp recorded over this test was 31.5°c which is above 14.5°c ambient.
Test 2 - Recovery from Heat Soak
Outside Temp 20.5°c
For this test I spent around 45 minutes in slow heavy traffic coming out of London followed by 10 minutes queuing at the petrol station for so much need V Power.
Once I started I logging the start after filling up the intake temp was showing as 58°c.
After the first 30 seconds of driving the intake temp dropped by 10°c and after a further 4 mins of driving at varying speeds between 40-70mph the intake temps had recovered back to 31-32°c or just over 10°c above ambient.
-
....
Very convincing. It would be interesting to learn how the THS compares with the performance of both the S3 and APR I/Cs.
I particularly like the attention to detail by the inclusion of helpful installation extra parts within the package.
-
Great write up thank you!
-
A group buy is now available on this IC - http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5888.0 :happy2:
-
....
This info wasn't loading on my system yesterday but is today, so I've copied it here....
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fn127%2Fnitroxneil%2FUntitled-1.png&hash=8fb4ffc5ad8e175c328c79e6e9339cd32dc7de45)
Which just leaves the question of size/volume comparison with APR's offering.
-
....
This info wasn't loading on my system yesterday but is today, so I've copied it here....
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fn127%2Fnitroxneil%2FUntitled-1.png&hash=8fb4ffc5ad8e175c328c79e6e9339cd32dc7de45)
Which just leaves the question of size/volume comparison with APR's offering.
The sizes i have been given were 590mm x 410mm x 57 mm with 57mm outlet
-
....
This info wasn't loading on my system yesterday but is today, so I've copied it here....
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fn127%2Fnitroxneil%2FUntitled-1.png&hash=8fb4ffc5ad8e175c328c79e6e9339cd32dc7de45)
Which just leaves the question of size/volume comparison with APR's offering.
The sizes i have been given were 590mm x 410mm x 57 mm with 57mm outlet
By who Yin?
-
Wonder why audi made the outlet thinner than the gti intercooler on the s3 intercooler? :confused:
Maybe they saw a pressure drop when slightly increasing the core size?
-
For comparison the APR cooler is 16.25" tall, 2.25" thick, and 23.2" wide according to their website (or 412.75mm tall x 57.15mm thick x 589.28mm wide) :smiley:
-
Wonder why audi made the outlet thinner than the gti intercooler on the s3 intercooler? :confused:
Maybe they saw a pressure drop when slightly increasing the core size?
I was confused by this until I saw the GTI one out of the car, the initial outlet is massive, but the part directly behind it into the core is much much smaller than the S3 and THS ones :happy2:
-
Thanks for the info steve :happy2:
-
....
This info wasn't loading on my system yesterday but is today, so I've copied it here....
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fn127%2Fnitroxneil%2FUntitled-1.png&hash=8fb4ffc5ad8e175c328c79e6e9339cd32dc7de45)
Which just leaves the question of size/volume comparison with APR's offering.
The sizes i have been given were 590mm x 410mm x 57 mm with 57mm outlet
By who Yin?
By APR has anybody got the sizes of the Twintercooler?
-
well those figures of 590mm x 410mm x 57 mm with 57mm outlet, give the APR intercooler a cubic capacity of 13.79litres.
anybody have the twintercooler figures, as them added to the oem intercooler will give us the comparisons between the vast majority of the usual choices. i for one am considering the twintercooler and would love to know the results
-
Just found this
"Clearly it is not very large, although the heat exchange is 50x15x6 cm (and the overall dimensions are 70x18x7 cm)."
link here fore Twintercooler
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.leon2passion.com/montage-piece-mecanique-f72/installation-twintercooler-forge-t1784.htm&ei=YNlQStbvBOPLjAfLrKWvBQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtwintercooler%2Bdimensions%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20
-
well thats about 13.6 litres when combined with the OEM IC not inclusive of the additional piping involved.
are there downsides to having such large capacity intercoolers, such as extra lag maybe.
its ok having really cool intake temperatures but if your spool up suffers with lag, it could make sense to stick to the S3 intercooler.
-
^^^ I certainly haven't felt any additional lag on mine with the THS cooler TBH :happy2:
-
thats good to know then, im just not sure which way to go yet on the IC route. far to many options. im only running KO3 so im thinking the S3 or twintercooler will be suffircient for the max output of my car,i guess ill end up looking into prices including fitting to decide that way.
i wont get it over 285bhp without a ko4 conversion or bigger, are thre any cheaper vendors for the THS IC
-
thats good to know then, im just not sure which way to go yet on the IC route. far to many options. im only running KO3 so im thinking the S3 or twintercooler will be suffircient for the max output of my car,i guess ill end up looking into prices including fitting to decide that way.
i wont get it over 285bhp without a ko4 conversion or bigger, are thre any cheaper vendors for the THS IC
Just a heads up but the twintercooler is much easier to fit and remove than this IC.
Handy for when you want to sell the car. :smiley:
-
Great write up Steve :happy2: Fitted in 3 hrs - not bad at all.. took me a 'bit' longer to fit the S3 I/C to my Ed30 :grin: :grin: :grin: I'll be looking to fit a Twintercooler in a month or so...
-
Original Post Updated with some Data Logging Details :happy2:
-
Original Post Updated with some Data Logging Details :happy2:
....Extremely useful real-world info, Steve - Nice one! :happy2: 8) :happy2:
-
Do you have any logs before the intercooler was fitted, Steve?
-
Do you have any logs before the intercooler was fitted, Steve?
I am trying to get hold of some from when Stage 2 + was installed with the original IC :happy2:
I will post the comparison if I can get these.
-
You asked for some data on S3 + Twintercooler
This is on a stage 2 GTi (not an ED30)
Ambient temp 25.5C, car been running for about 40 minutes before logging.
Group 11
Intake Air - Temperature °C
35 2520 rpm
34 2920
33 3280
33 3680
32 4080
32 4400
33 4720
33 5000
33 5320
33 5600
35 6080
hth
-
....
I'd be grateful for advice whether folks think the THS is overkill for a K03 or not.
Do we now know that there won't be turbo lag on the K03?
And will THS install if they supply? Whereabouts are they based?
-
....
I'd be grateful for advice whether folks think the THS is overkill for a K03 or not.
Do we now know that there won't be turbo lag on the K03?
And will THS install if they supply? Whereabouts are they based?
I doubt that there'll be any issues with this seeing that there aren't any with the larger APR IC.
-
^^^^
Cheers, bacillus :drinking: - Just checking to see what's known.
-
^^^^
Cheers, bacillus :drinking: - Just checking to see what's known.
Me thinks Hurdy is trying to flog you his twintercooler but will you be tempted. :wink:
-
....
I'd be grateful for advice whether folks think the THS is overkill for a K03 or not.
Do we now know that there won't be turbo lag on the K03?
And will THS install if they supply? Whereabouts are they based?
THS are based in Bournemouth and fitting can be arranged via APD (a VAG Specialist and Revo dealer).
-
^^^^
Many thanks for that info, Steve :happy2: - Bournemouth/Poole is quite convenient.
The slippery slope never ends, eh?
:drinking:
-
Mine has just arrived today :jumping:
Looks a quality piece of kit :happy2:
-
Mine has just arrived today :jumping:
Looks a quality piece of kit :happy2:
It certainly is!
-
any comparison logs between APR, Twintercooler, THS and stock S3 available anywhere?
-
Be lucky of if you will find all of these aggregated in one place on the web, but the info is out there - I have THS logs if needed. IMHO I would go for either of the two following arrangements: THS or S3 plus twintercooler. There are plenty of threads on here already that discuss the relative merits of each, search is your friend. :happy2:
-
I finally managed to convince myself i needed one of these in my life and after much debate i took the plunge and ordered one last week. It arrived this morning promptly by courier and i've gotta agree with Hurdy, this looks like one quality and beautifully engineered bit of kit. Install is happening tomorrow...cant wait...!! :party:
-
are there downsides to having such large capacity intercoolers, such as extra lag maybe.
its ok having really cool intake temperatures but if your spool up suffers with lag, it could make sense to stick to the S3 intercooler.
The crucial issue with intercoolers is their internal flow rates. A highly efficient i/c may actually see a drop in boost pressure, because it can deliver a higher 'CFM'. And there is now way an intercooler can affect turbo lag.
-
If you see a drop in boost pressure will this not create lag though as surely the lower pressure means it takes the turbo longer to spool up?
Or is that not how it works?
-
^^^ Carl, I think what T_T means is that an intercooler with a very efficient flow rate will mean the turbo will not need to boost as much to meet the specified boost.
The measurement for boost with VCDS is taken post the intercooler. So for example if you are boosting at 20 PSI the turbo may actually be boosting at 25 PSI to make that 20 PSI post the intercooler. All the stuff between the turbo and intake manifold (intercooler, pipes, tb pipe) will cause a drop in boost pressure.
Therefore if you have an intercooler with a highly efficient flow rate it will mean the turbo is not having to work as hard to meet the specified boost. For example with an uprated intercooler it may now be boosting at 23 PSI to make that 20 PSI post the intercooler.
These figures are just exmaples so not accurate to any specific intercoolers.
-
It is actually explained very nicely on THS's website!
Pressure drop
How does reducing pressure drop help?
On the 2.0TFSI engine the boost pressure is measured on the up-pipe after the intercooler. However the boost pressure here, or at the intake manifold will be less than that at the turbo outlet. This is because of the restriction of the intercooler and pipe work.
Example restrictive core
Intake manifold pressure: 25 psi
Restriction / Pressure drop: 6 psi
Turbo outlet the pressure: 31 psi
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ths.snapalbum.co.uk%2Fimages%2Ftfsicool%2Fpressure-drop1a.png&hash=7047791f76abb81f8a84728c4799eba64c431a7b)
Reducing the pressure drop by means of a more efficient intercooler and pipe work requires the turbo to produce less boost pressure at its outlet whilst still maintaining the required boost pressure at the intake manifold.
Example free flow core
Intake manifold pressure: 25 psi
Restriction / Pressure drop: 3 psi
Turbo outlet the pressure: 28 psi
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ths.snapalbum.co.uk%2Fimages%2Ftfsicool%2Fpressure-drop2a.png&hash=1b921bfeb594c1f759cb03b865dcb29e26f26d7a)
This has 2 distinct advantages:
Compressing air causes it to increase in temperature, the less it is compressed the colder it remains.
An intercooler which offers good cooling but with a high pressure drop due to restrictive core and excessive pipe work is less efficient than one with similar cooling but a less restriction.
The turbo is not working as hard to produce the same requested boost at the manifold. Prolonging the life of turbo.
-
Thanks - a much clearer post.
-
Cheers KRL
I understand it now :happy2:
-
Having clocked up some 16k miles with the THS fmic I can vouch for it being a well designed and quality engineered piece of kit.
-
Very interesting thread, many thanks !! :happy2:
-
^^^ Carl, I think what T_T means is that an intercooler with a very efficient flow rate will mean the turbo will not need to boost as much to meet the specified boost.
The measurement for boost with VCDS is taken post the intercooler. So for example if you are boosting at 20 PSI the turbo may actually be boosting at 25 PSI to make that 20 PSI post the intercooler. All the stuff between the turbo and intake manifold (intercooler, pipes, tb pipe) will cause a drop in boost pressure.
Therefore if you have an intercooler with a highly efficient flow rate it will mean the turbo is not having to work as hard to meet the specified boost. For example with an uprated intercooler it may now be boosting at 23 PSI to make that 20 PSI post the intercooler.
These figures are just exmaples so not accurate to any specific intercoolers.
That's exactly what I was trying to say! :happy2:
The real test of an intercoolers 'internal' efficiency should be its internal flow rate - in American English, that would be 'cubic feet per minute' (CFM), or in metric 'litres per minute' (L/m). High CFMs are far more important than high boost pressures - but sadly, most peeps are not aware of CFMs, and get hung up on high boost readings.
-
I spoke to Revo and they are THS fans ahead if twintercooler. I like the idea of lower temps, improved efficiency and less soft/flat performance in the summer. Plus more headroom against det
I'd love to see figs for power improvements against the twintercooler
-
i wouldnt expect to see power improvements unless you car is suffering horrific heat soak already. The IC will allow you ot maintain power for longer without it dropping off.
Id imagine that its pretty much negligible difference in performance, cooling capacity, and recovery of the THS and twintercooler.