MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: C4MKV on January 09, 2013, 10:13:53 pm
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So I had a Whiteline Anti-lift kit fitted last week at Awesome GTI, and a wheel alignment done by them after fitting, and yesterday I went around a local roundabout at around 20mph, one that I know well and the car has never had any problem going around, and this time the car understeered terribly and nearly came off the road! I thought the WALK kit was supposed to help the handling?! The road was damp, but I'm pretty sure I used to be able to make the turn without any trouble before, anyone experienced this, and what exactly is the WALK supposed to help with?
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You have contradicted yourself in the statement compared to topic title. Did the back end try and step out on the roundabout or did the car try and go straight on as you turned. :happy2:
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Do you have a printout of the alignment as this will affect the car more than the bushes.
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Sorry, typo! I've corrected, yes the car understeered as I tried to turn right around the roundabout, it went straight on before I corrected it. I've tried a few different turns and it's not too bad going around general bends but anything tight and it feels really unstable.
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Damn... must be something wrong, because mine really digs in during fast cornering.
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The effect of the WALK kit should be slightly heavier steering, and feel of more grip as you exit roundabouts. I would be driving it carefully back to them. They might have forgotten to tighten something up. It should defo feel more planted not skittish with more under steer. :chicken:
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Do you have a printout of the alignment as this will affect the car more than the bushes.
Yes I was given a print out, there are some figures that don't match from left to right. The Left rear thrust angle is 0.35 degrees and the right rear is 0.05 degrees. Is this within tolerance? On the print out diagram it is showing the right rear toe being at an angle with the right being straight. It's the first wheel alignment print out I've been given so not sure what to look for.
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Do you have a printout of the alignment as this will affect the car more than the bushes.
Yes I was given a print out, there are some figures that don't match from left to right. The Left rear thrust angle is 0.35 degrees and the right rear is 0.05 degrees. Is this within tolerance? On the print out diagram it is showing the right rear toe being at an angle with the right being straight. It's the first wheel alignment print out I've been given so not sure what to look for.
Can you scan it in or take a pic and post it up.
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Yep, here's a pic:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.eu.viewbook.com%2Fb747a896e185a65cd6f21abfc2fcd01d.jpg&hash=3fce7baf35f1dd543e86450cead295bbab832c36)
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The rear looks all on the piss, did they actually do all 4 wheels?
Something isn't right.
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As far as I know yes, I could see that they had sensors on all wheels
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Rear toe should match to be honest... no wonder its understeeing with that toe in on the rear passenger side.
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It's not what I'd call a fast road set up by any stretch, it must feel numb.
There may be some good explanation, like diesel on the roundabout, drop in temp (sumer tyres don't like being below 7 degrees), tyre pressures...
I'd still have them check everything again though. :happy2:
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It was 10 degrees so not exactly cold, and the road was damp but not wet, hadn't rained since the day before. As I said it's not feeling right when I push it around any roundabout, but since then I've taken others a little slower!
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Sorry to hijack the thread but does anyone have the figures for fast road set up on the gti??
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That is the worst alignment I've seen in a long time. Back hasn't been touched. Take it back and ask why the rear wasn't done.
Rear camber should be -1.45 both sides and 0.05 toe either side.
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Sorry to hijack the thread but does anyone have the figures for fast road set up on the gti??
Stick to stock settings for the road. Spot on really. I can do something more aggressive if you like oversteer or a really sharp turn in.
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In rough terms for fast road...
As much caster and camber as you can get on the front with a fraction of toe in.
Rear .5degree less neg camber than the fronts and parallel toe.
Warning. It will feel very French.
C4MKV - as Alex says, that's pretty sh*te. Take it back.
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How much difference is there between 0.05 an parallel rear in the way it handles?
Whats the trick to increase turn in speed? Less front toe in?
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For safety's sake, they add grip to the rear so the front loses it first, dialling it back gives more mobility al la French Clutter.
If you want silly turn in, go front toe out, but it'll wander around like a pig on rollerskates :signLOL:
There's not much point me trying to explain, as it's far more complex than what I've said - but any decent place should be able to transfer your 'wants' into a decent geo.
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I have a hunter alignment machine at work really good machine ill just stick to stock figures then. Will it matter that I'm down 30mm on H&R springs?
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Alex set mine up great a while back... but humping my car up a kerb ever day has knocked it out, doesn't feel quite as planted now.
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Last year the garage that fitted my winters stood the rear wheels up almost vertical.
Coupled with the added fun of brand new winters the handling felt very "sporty" in fact lethal doesn't quite cover it.
Since been fixed but it was sh*t for a while. :scared:
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Just for info this is my alignment prinout after Alex had done with it. Superpro ALK, H&R springs and rear arb. Handling is fantastic. So much fun to drive.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F1003%2FMatt.H%2FInternet%2FIMAG0302.jpg&hash=04c93c39f337105d535c2c43f033c6652c7f1f1a)
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And that's how it's done...
Awesomely lazy as usual. Ask for 50% of the geo fee back, seeing as they've only done 50% of it.
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Yep, here's a pic:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.eu.viewbook.com%2Fb747a896e185a65cd6f21abfc2fcd01d.jpg&hash=3fce7baf35f1dd543e86450cead295bbab832c36)
I remember after having my ARBs fitted and the GEO setup by JKM a few years back and after my car felt really really bad, so much so I put it on ramps when i was at home to check if anything had become loose. I then took it to Wheels In Motion for a geo check and found the geo was way off. £112 sheets later and the car felt fantastic.
Get some money back from Awesome for the half arsed attempt, then go to a garage who has the correct alignment gear. I normally check to see if the garage is using Hunter alignment gear, if so then ill consider them.
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Just for info this is my alignment prinout after Alex had done with it. Superpro ALK, H&R springs and rear arb. Handling is fantastic. So much fun to drive.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F1003%2FMatt.H%2FInternet%2FIMAG0302.jpg&hash=04c93c39f337105d535c2c43f033c6652c7f1f1a)
Would that setup be applicable to a car with no suspension upgrades?
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Yes, but not 100% the same.
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JKM use guys with a Hunter rig................
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2Ffile.jpg&hash=568ce3fae3132792fb3f745170b8e5f5c73f2f4f)
^ My car feels extremely well planted on this setup ^
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JKM use guys with a Hunter rig................
they did it in the workshop when i was there, but that was back in 2007/2008
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That is the worst alignment I've seen in a long time. Back hasn't been touched. Take it back and ask why the rear wasn't done.
Rear camber should be -1.45 both sides and 0.05 toe either side.
Thanks Alex, is the front correct then? If not can you let me know what the correct figures are?
Cheers
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JKM use guys with a Hunter rig................
they did it in the workshop when i was there, but that was back in 2007/2008
They don't have a Hunter setup on site but refer people to Denmead Tyres who fixed mine last year. :happy2:
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Looks like they have progressed then...9
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Denmead's Hunter laser rig................
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FHunterLaserRig.jpg&hash=fe1e08eedf551b19dcfc936ac2257129a8ee3cf5)
Hunter seems to have the reputation as currently being the best alignment rig.
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After fitting WALK and KW-V3's, Volkswagen Racing did the original setup on my car...........................
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_AlignmentSetup.jpg&hash=118325bdbf8682f13401c42f3815fa76815b1874)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_Alignment.jpg&hash=c09f9d826e3dba6b47598b83fa8fd86aee359379)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_Weightingpre.jpg&hash=49a37fadcce2fc342e018e231db2a13de7b957ff)
^ Before corner weighting ^
And they did a mighty fine job of it too :notworthy:
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The response I've had from Awesome GTI in regards to why the rear wheels were not set up properly is that they said the bolts had seized up :stupid:
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The response I've had from Awesome GTI in regards to why the rear wheels were not set up properly is that they said the bolts had seized up :stupid:
But they still charged you!? Lmao!
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So they didnt tell you that before you paid?? GREAT!!!
Its their job to UN-SEIZE the fecking bolt..... :surprised:
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Apparently I was told, must have had selective deafness if that's the case!
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Hmmm... if it were seized they should have just charged you to do the fronts...
Im damn sure that TTS-Roadsport or Alex would have unseized that bolt in no time at all. :happy2:
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Hunter seems to have the reputation as currently being the best alignment rig.
It's only as good as the person operating it like any tool. :happy2:
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It's only as good as the person operating it like any tool. :happy2:
^^^That^^^
I like to take my car to a Proper chassis specialist, like Wheels In Motion or Center Gravity, who isnt interested in the stock settings and instead will set the car up to handle how I want it. I then keep the print off and when ever it needs realigning, i get someone with a hunter rig to reset them as per the printout. Much cheaper than paying £100+ each time.
The response I've had from Awesome GTI in regards to why the rear wheels were not set up properly is that they said the bolts had seized up :stupid:
Thats ridiculous. Id tel them you want your money back or you will put a review of the shoddy work on the forums. How much was the alignment out if interest?
Also what bolts seized? It seems like both the Camber and the toe werent changed
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It's only as good as the person operating it like any tool. :happy2:
^^^That^^^
I like to take my car to a Proper chassis specialist, like Wheels In Motion or Center Gravity, who isnt interested in the stock settings and instead will set the car up to handle how I want it. I then keep the print off and when ever it needs realigning, i get someone with a hunter rig to reset them as per the printout. Much cheaper than paying £100+ each time.
The response I've had from Awesome GTI in regards to why the rear wheels were not set up properly is that they said the bolts had seized up :stupid:
Thats ridiculous. Id tel them you want your money back or you will put a review of the shoddy work on the forums. How much was the alignment out if interest?
Also what bolts seized? It seems like both the Camber and the toe werent changed
It was £69 which is pretty cheap compared to other places (get what you pay for as they say!) They didn't say which bolts
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I pay £70 for laser geo at Votex in Congleton. And they do it right. :happy2:
Out of interest, how much was the WALK install? I got charged an hour's labour + geo.
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I pay £70 for laser geo at Votex in Congleton. And they do it right. :happy2:
Out of interest, how much was the WALK install? I got charged an hour's labour + geo.
Looks like £33 for fitting it. Only trouble was one of the bolts snapped in half when they were removing the old parts and so I had to wait 2 weeks for them to get a new centre console in stock (the big metal plate that sits underneath the front of the car). So that cost me another £150 including parts and fitting. For the price altogether I wish I had gone with a set of ARB's instead!
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Seems like you had these guys working on it.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20120406194361%2Fmuppet%2Fimages%2F8%2F8b%2FTms-muppets-cast.jpg&hash=78e5e80fcd5e775aaa01bf4251203dff7b3ba456)
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I pay £70 for laser geo at Votex in Congleton. And they do it right. :happy2:
Out of interest, how much was the WALK install? I got charged an hour's labour + geo.
Looks like £33 for fitting it. Only trouble was one of the bolts snapped in half when they were removing the old parts and so I had to wait 2 weeks for them to get a new centre console in stock (the big metal plate that sits underneath the front of the car). So that cost me another £150 including parts and fitting. For the price altogether I wish I had gone with a set of ARB's instead!
I had three bolts snap in my other car which is an Altea on Xmas Eve when swapping from the WALK to the SALK. I just drilled the old bolts out and replaced with Timeserts and new bolts. Had a bolt snap in a GTi the other day too. No need for a new section of subframe.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv489%2Ffordkaracing%2F20121224_141135.jpg&hash=4a6f67c96b8b0d1ae9dda461ef5728330642eea1)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv489%2Ffordkaracing%2F20121224_141128.jpg&hash=c199feafa022b673b85a913e52bd2c30ae880742)
TBH if the rear toe bolts have seized then they will need new bushes and bolts. Had to cut quite a few off recently and replace with poly bushes. No other way around it, but I can usually get enough twist in the bush to get the alignment better. Never had camber bolts seize even on very high mileage cars.
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Just for info this is my alignment prinout after Alex had done with it. Superpro ALK, H&R springs and rear arb. Handling is fantastic. So much fun to drive.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F1003%2FMatt.H%2FInternet%2FIMAG0302.jpg&hash=04c93c39f337105d535c2c43f033c6652c7f1f1a)
Would that setup be applicable to a car with no suspension upgrades?
From what I remember, Alex its not far off a stock set up which is pretty good as it is. It all depends on how you would like your car to handle I suppose and whether you do trackdays. For me I find this set up very balanced but I have no knowledge or experience of how different alignments affect the handling.
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^^^^
All my setting values are a little bit more away from standard than Alex has done but they suit me well.
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Looks like £33 for fitting it. Only trouble was one of the bolts snapped in half when they were removing the old parts and so I had to wait 2 weeks for them to get a new centre console in stock (the big metal plate that sits underneath the front of the car). So that cost me another £150 including parts and fitting. For the price altogether I wish I had gone with a set of ARB's instead!
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I had three bolts snap in my other car which is an Altea on Xmas Eve when swapping from the WALK to the SALK. I just drilled the old bolts out and replaced with Timeserts and new bolts. Had a bolt snap in a GTi the other day too. No need for a new section of subframe.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv489%2Ffordkaracing%2F20121224_141135.jpg&hash=4a6f67c96b8b0d1ae9dda461ef5728330642eea1)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv489%2Ffordkaracing%2F20121224_141128.jpg&hash=c199feafa022b673b85a913e52bd2c30ae880742)
TBH if the rear toe bolts have seized then they will need new bushes and bolts. Had to cut quite a few off recently and replace with poly bushes. No other way around it, but I can usually get enough twist in the bush to get the alignment better. Never had camber bolts seize even on very high mileage cars.
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They've told me that both the toe and camber bolts were seized up!
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So they won't touch those, but they'll happily snap your seized subframe bolts?
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Isnt it their job to un-seize the bolts?!
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think i will be getting Alex to do my bottom arm bush and tracking
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So they won't touch those, but they'll happily snap your seized subframe bolts?
Yep fair point! I've booked it into the dealers in York where I live to have a look at and do the alignment if possible, can't be arsed making the 200 mile round trip to Awesome anymore just to be told all my flipping bolts are seized up! The car is only 6 years old, anyone would think it was a 30 year old mark 1!
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So they won't touch those, but they'll happily snap your seized subframe bolts?
You dont always know until it snaps that its going to snap.
I snapped an alloy banjo bolt on a turbo last week. Why the f*ck anyone would use an alloy banjo bolt in a turbo is beyond me, but there was no warning it was going to snap.
Knew straight away the bolts were going to snap on the Altea after the first turn. Had no option but to snap them off as there is no way of un seizing them.
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The joys of all these nice alloy bits and steel bolts!
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These console bolts are a pain - they stand proud of the aluminium, gather dirt and suffer galvanic corrosion, resulting in them galling horribly when you try to remove them. Happened on my car, but thankfully the bolts sheered with enough of a bolt still above the aluminium, so I removed the affected parts from the car, welded a nut on the top and then turned the bolt out through what would ordinarily be the top.
Had the same fun removing an ARB droplink on my other car recently - ARB droplink ballt joint / pinch bolt made of steel, hub made of aluminium......
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These console bolts are a pain - they stand proud of the aluminium, gather dirt and suffer galvanic corrosion, resulting in them galling horribly when you try to remove them. Happened on my car, but thankfully the bolts sheered with enough of a bolt still above the aluminium, so I removed the affected parts from the car, welded a nut on the top and then turned the bolt out through what would ordinarily be the top.
Had the same fun removing an ARB droplink on my other car recently - ARB droplink ballt joint / pinch bolt made of steel, hub made of aluminium......
Bugger, ARB's are probably my next thing on the list to upgrade, not sure I could handle anything else snapping or seizing!
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These console bolts are a pain - they stand proud of the aluminium, gather dirt and suffer galvanic corrosion, resulting in them galling horribly when you try to remove them. Happened on my car, but thankfully the bolts sheered with enough of a bolt still above the aluminium, so I removed the affected parts from the car, welded a nut on the top and then turned the bolt out through what would ordinarily be the top.
Had the same fun removing an ARB droplink on my other car recently - ARB droplink ballt joint / pinch bolt made of steel, hub made of aluminium......
Bugger, ARB's are probably my next thing on the list to upgrade, not sure I could handle anything else snapping or seizing!
It's a very different design on my other car, and for what it's worth, when I did unbolt the ARBs on my golf they came undone with ease.
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Alex did a class job on aligning my car before the last track day. Turn in grip were outstanding!
Yet to give it some b4st4rd since having the full poly bushes and adj top mounts.
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Good news, Awesome GTI have offered to refund the money for the alignment, which will go towards the £90 that the VW dealers will cost me next week when I get them to have a look at it, hopefully they will be able to loosen the bolts without needing to break anything. Just can't understand why they should be seized up since I had full alignment a year ago :confused:
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Good good.... :happy2:
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Judging by the alignment figures from Awesome, the rear end hadn't been adjusted at the previous alignment. I doubt you will have any luck getting the bolts freed up again unfortunately.
Do you have a print out of the alignment done before awesomes?
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Good news!
I didn't notice -steer with mine...
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Judging by the alignment figures from Awesome, the rear end hadn't been adjusted at the previous alignment. I doubt you will have any luck getting the bolts freed up again unfortunately.
Do you have a print out of the alignment done before awesomes?
Sadly not, I asked if they had kept the data but they gave some excuse about needing to put in the customers info into the machine at the time which wasn't done.
I had the car for a week whilst I waited for the new centre console to be fitted (and running the right hand side WALK with just 2 out of the 3 bolts screwed in!). At this point it hadn't been aligned and the car actually felt pretty good, now after they did the alignment the car felt worse than before the WALK was put on at all!