MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: J5BWS on July 21, 2009, 12:07:44 am
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Just as the title says really, I was wondering if anyone could advise on the best setup for performance rather than bling please?...
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Just as the title says really, I was wondering if anyone could advise on the best setup for performance rather than bling please?...
If you want it to be performance based then I'd say some lightweight 7.5" or 8" by 17" alloys (lighter than 18's) with some good road tyres.
By road tyres I mean something like Yokohama A048's or Toyo R888's. You should be able to get slightly wider than normal tyres on the 8" alloys, say 235 section tyres. These tyres are brilliant in the dry, decent in the damp, but not so good in the wet/cold!!
If you really want the ultimate set-up for wheel and tyre then You will be looking at altering the camber set-up of the car along with rolling/widening the arches to get an even bigger tyre in there.
255 section rubber will fit at a squeeze with some 8.5"x 17" forged alloys would be the ultimate set-up and is the widest I've seen on a track focussed car. :smiley:
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Thanks Hurdy that's really useful information!
What differences could be felt when going from 17" upto 18 or even 19", is it noticeable?
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Thanks Hurdy that's really useful information!
What differences could be felt when going from 17" upto 18 or even 19", is it noticeable?
The difference between a lightweight 17" wheel with grippy tyres and a 19" bling wheel is amazing.
You will be able to get an alloy at 17" weighing 7kg (OZ Alleggerita for example)
a typical aftermarket 19" bling alloy can weigh 14kg (Helios)
The tyres weigh about 0.5kg extra in the 17" size, so you have 6.5kg extra at each wheel = 26kg on the unsprung rotational weight.
To get the equivalent effect of this as deadweight in the car you need to multiply by 5, so......
26kg x 5 = 130kg
This affects accelleration, decelleration, fuel consumption, handling and ride quality.
Extra weight on the unsprung part of the car cripples the ability of the suspension to react as fast as it should and so a choppy, harsh ride is the result...compared to a lighter set-up.
I'm currently on 18" Team Dynamics Pro race 1.2 alloys that weigh 9kg a corner and I can easily tell the difference from the 13kg 19" BBS CH's I had on before. The CH's were a lovely wheel and one of the best 19" wheels for a Golf, but they didn't do much for the outright performance, so I sold them on to someone who would appreciate them more. :smiley:
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It's the rotating mass really, both affected by the further weight is from centre and the overall weight.
The barrel of an 18 or 19inch wheel is further from centre, so it has a greater effect once moving. Acceleration, deceleration & steering response all being changed to a relative degree - put a tennis ball on a 2foot piece of string and swing it around, then do it on a 4foot piece, it'll feel heavier and take longer to get going & slow down. Make sense?
The mass of the wheel in unsprung weight terms affects the suspension too, as it has to work harder to control movement. A tennis ball on a piece of elastic will bounce around happily, a heavier cricket ball on the same piece will top and bottom out causing "crashing".
The general consensus is you don't want anything bigger than an 18" for fast road/track, a 17" being best because of the reasons above and they'll fit over most BBKs.
A lightweight 18" may be of preference though due to looks, room for larger brakes (such as an RS4 kit for example) and the ability to run a 40 instead of a 45 = less tyre roll.
Hope that helps?
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Just as the title says really, I was wondering if anyone could advise on the best setup for performance rather than bling please?...
...........i'm the other way i go for looks & style.My car came with the 17'' Monza alloys which look a bit small on the golf to me.Wanted to keep it o.e. look & was tempted to get a set of bbs ch replica but in the end was offered a set of edition 30 alloys in fact they were orginally on Hurdys edition 30 so got these on now.
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Thanks for all your help guys, definitely given me something to think about compared to my original plans of 18 or even 19" blingsters!
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What do you reckon to these:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tirerack.com%2Fimages%2Fwheels%2Foz%2Fswap%2Foz_allerghlt_anth_ci3_l.jpg&hash=91e12bd6588c5ff839e2dcc1411ad39aed35401f)
17x8
With these:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michelinman.com%2Fimages%2Fpic%2Ftires%2Fdetail%2Fpilot-sport-ps2.jpg&hash=ba7cbbf0f75c0fb5464bcd8c1278ae50cddb7f77)
in 235/45/17?
The tyres are Michelin Sport PS2 which I've heard good things about, I love driving in the wet so I know I'd hate the Toyo R888's and would prefer a better all rounder...
Good setup?
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What do you reckon to these:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tirerack.com%2Fimages%2Fwheels%2Foz%2Fswap%2Foz_allerghlt_anth_ci3_l.jpg&hash=91e12bd6588c5ff839e2dcc1411ad39aed35401f)
17x8
With these:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michelinman.com%2Fimages%2Fpic%2Ftires%2Fdetail%2Fpilot-sport-ps2.jpg&hash=ba7cbbf0f75c0fb5464bcd8c1278ae50cddb7f77)
in 235/45/17?
The tyres are Michelin Sport PS2 which I've heard good things about, I love driving in the wet so I know I'd hate the Toyo R888's and would prefer a better all rounder...
Good setup?
Actually on looking deeper into this, I'm not sure that the wheels are available in the correct offsets??...
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That would be an awesome set up :happy2:
You would be laughing yourself silly at the difference the alloys and tyres make to your handling, grip, accelleration etc etc. :drinking:
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If you phone someone like Demon Tweeks they would let you know before you buy :happy2:
For the record I think the Alleggerita's come with an option for a 48 offset, which should be fine as long as you don't slam it down on the suspension settings :smiley:
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If you phone someone like Demon Tweeks they would let you know before you buy :happy2:
For the record I think the Alleggerita's come with an option for a 48 offset, which should be fine as long as you don't slam it down on the suspension settings :smiley:
Thanks matey, I might just do that tomorrow!
:)
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They'll be the 'shizzle' of all combinations, as I believe the kids are calling it these days :congrats:
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would you not be better with goodyear f1 assem tyres ??
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J5BWS; I'm looking at some Silver Turini's in 17" for a similar purpose to the one you describe. Keep the handling sweet and keep the tyre renewal costs down.
I fear they'd look a bit small in 17"s but need pics to justify any 17"s other than the Monza I's which a lot of people change anyway. I'll inevitably follow that lead.
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I really like my Monza's if I'm honest, much more than the 18" version (can't remember their name?), but I am concerned that the OZ or whatever I decide to go with will look a little small...
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Get 18s then - they're a very, very light wheel anyway, so you're still going to get some benefit. I did with mine.
If these are going to be your 365 wheels, then you've got to be 100% happy with them. You've just got to choose where you compromise, size or weight?
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The difference between a lightweight 17" wheel with grippy tyres and a 19" bling wheel is amazing.
You will be able to get an alloy at 17" weighing 7kg (OZ Alleggerita for example)
a typical aftermarket 19" bling alloy can weigh 14kg (Helios)
The tyres weigh about 0.5kg extra in the 17" size, so you have 6.5kg extra at each wheel = 26kg on the unsprung rotational weight.
To get the equivalent effect of this as deadweight in the car you need to multiply by 5, so......
26kg x 5 = 130kg
This affects accelleration, decelleration, fuel consumption, handling and ride quality.
....To put this very helpful info into perspective, does anyone know what the stock Monza 17s and 18s weigh each, please?
And are those weights given without tyres?
:happy2:
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Nips out to the garage....
A BBS Monza II 18" weighs 12.06 kilos, The Ronal version weighs more - rougly 1.5kilos iirc.
Also, Hurdy has been a bit over enthusiastic with the x5 calculation, whilst it is near impossible to give a 'rule' due to the differences in weights of barrels and the more of an effect rotating mass has dependant on how far it is from centre.. It is generally considered to be somewhere between a x3 and x4 effect, the latter being the more commonly used, depending on the wheel's size and weight, tyres obviously have weight differences and an effect too.
I'll ask my father in law (Prof. of engineering) to explain it a bit better than I remember from Physics and get a better idea of a more accurate x? effect for us.
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A BBS Monza II 18" weighs 12.06 kilos, The Ronal version weighs more - rougly 1.5kilos iirc.
....Probably because the BBS Monza has their Hollow Wheel Technology (their patents, I expect).
:happy2:
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Right,
I've spoken to Prof Yaffle and my brain now aches. Basically what I put earlier in the thread is sound, there is no easy way of calculating an effective loss/gain as there's too many variables in wheels, you just have to understand the principles of polar moment of inertia and the gyroscopic effect.
The bigger a wheel is, i.e. the further the bulk of its mass is from centre, the bigger its resistance is to rotational acceleration/deceleration, also once spinning the gyroscopic effect is what makes something harder to turn the bigger it is. So, larger wheels have a direct impact on performance in terms of acceleration, deceleration and steering response... steering is slower to react, it saps more power from the engine and the brakes have to work harder. This where the similarities are drawn in terms of it being equivalent of adding/removing xxkilos.
Even if a 17" wheel is the same weight as an 18", it will still respond better to turn and accelerate/decelerate quicker. That's why they're deemed to be the best for pure performance.
Unsprung mass is pretty much as I described. The lower the mass, the less effect it has on the car's suspension making the ride smoother.
Hope that helps.
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Good info :happy2:
Did you get to speak to Bagpuss as well :laugh:
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Even if a 17" wheel is the same weight as an 18", it will still respond better to turn and accelerate/decelerate quicker. That's why they're deemed to be the best for pure performance.
....I've still got my Monza 17s - What colour should I powdercoat them, guys?
Stick some track rubber on them, put the back seats down, bung 'em in the back, and off to The Ring! :wink:
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Satin black.
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Satin black.
....My thoughts exactly! Keeps it looking oem (sort of!) :drinking: