MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: spliff1star on September 11, 2009, 04:30:54 am
-
ok as u know i have the golf gti 197bhp(that may be remaped??) model not ed30 but i would like to know what the true bhp the ed30 has over my model. i hear it has 20bhp extra,then i hear it has 30bhp extra so what is it?
-
realy 40 bhp (240 bhp - same as Seat Leon Cupra Engine)
-
realy 40 bhp (240 bhp - same as Seat Leon Cupra Engine)
240hp on a dyno?
Cupras seem to dyno around 265hp standard but yes as max has said its the same engine. A k04 is quite a different drive to a k03
-
227bhp to 197bhp. Do the maths :wink:. Rolling roads are a lottery.
Cars dont produce higher then manufactured figures unless modified.
Companys rolling roads will only show estimated not actual in all cases,giving impression they produce "above factory figures".
-
Cars dont produce higher then manufactured figures unless modified.
Not always true.
-
Yea - I've always understood that VW are quite cautious in their stated outputs - something like they take 10 test engines and quote the lowest of the 10??
Ed30 has 30bhp over standard - just call me a mathematician :grin:
-
Cars dont produce higher then manufactured figures unless modified.
Not always true.
You believe what you want to. Vw cannot sell a car thats not technically it stated output. Going on different rolling road days will make you think that they dont, and the companys rollers will make you think this too, but as a "Production Car" it wont.
Vw ,SEAT who or whatever production car manufacturers dont just give a rough idea, its fact. (give or take 1-2%)
Hand build engines for example, Aston Martin, are hand built and will be different from car to car.
-
:grin:
Guys , Phil takes a strong opinion on this issue , to which I dont subscribe, nor do i wish to discuss again here :driver:
As a rough guide relatively its 30-40 bhp peak difference. (all other factors being considered)
Some curves on Awesomes or JKM's dyno pages for you to review (dont get hung up on figures look at the graph shape)
std K03 and std K04 gti have very different power delivery 'feel' , lag is slightly worse on K04
(and prob enhances the turbo spool 'push' wow factor)
K03 is seamless delivery from very low rpm.
The K04 ultimately has higher bhp available to it, both because it started out higher , and because the hardware has what appears to be a higher 'headroom' level for tuning before any shortcomings are hit.
fwiw : TopCats REVO stg2 K03 is just as quick as my stg1 ED30 , they 'feel' very different but the figures suggest they are very close.
both are fantastic cars and dont assume the K04 is necessarily 'better' (but you will want an ED30/Pirelli sometime soon :signLOL:)
:happy2:
-
:grin:
Guys , Phil takes a strong opinion on this issue , to which I dont subscribe, nor do i wish to discuss again here :driver:
Cheers John_0 :popcornsoda:
The day that someone actually can proove that a production Engine has performance bhp differences from the exact same made parts. Then im all ears. :happy2:
Get your car checked out if you cant beat Tc's car :wink:
-
If you look at remap figures you will be able toget up to a true 260-270bhp and 320lbft with a GTI and around 350-360bhp and 360lbft with an Edition 30. :happy2:
-
:grin:
Guys , Phil takes a strong opinion on this issue , to which I dont subscribe, nor do i wish to discuss again here :driver:
Cheers John_0 :popcornsoda:
The day that someone actually can proove that a production Engine has performance bhp differences from the exact same made parts. Then im all ears. :happy2:
Get your car checked out if you cant beat Tc's car :wink:
It's often talked about in the motoring press. My mate went to a rolling road day recently as part of the honda group. All the standard hondas were running bang on, or slightly below, the tuned ones made only a few more bhp. There were some alfa gta's which all made a few bhp under claims and a couple of vag tfsi which all made 10-15% more than claims. That to me proves the accuracy of the rr and the fact that vag are indeed very conservative with figures.
I read that an engineer from bugatti claimed that the veyron actually runs 1100 bhp not 1000bhp. Another vag engine :smiley:
-
I actually agree with Mcavity on this point, :chicken: but i am not willing to die on my sword trying to dispute any claims, Because i also have not got a clue. :pomppomp:
I certainly wouldn't enter into every discussion on the point knowing Sweet F.A about it apart from the readings from one rolling road. :popcornsoda: :signLOL:
-
Someone say wheelspin ;)
-
:grin:
Guys , Phil takes a strong opinion on this issue , to which I dont subscribe, nor do i wish to discuss again here :driver:
Cheers John_0 :popcornsoda:
The day that someone actually can proove that a production Engine has performance bhp differences from the exact same made parts. Then im all ears. :happy2:
Get your car checked out if you cant beat Tc's car :wink:
I read that an engineer from bugatti claimed that the veyron actually runs 1100 bhp not 1000bhp. Another vag engine :smiley:
I agree, and that engine is hand built :happy2:
-
I actually agree with Mcavity on this point, :chicken: but i am not willing to die on my sword trying to dispute any claims, Because i also have not got a clue. :pomppomp:
I certainly wouldn't enter into every discussion on the point knowing Sweet F.A about it apart from the readings from one rolling road. :popcornsoda: :signLOL:
:surprised:
Being an engineer for 10 years, i do know a little about it. And agree dont take for gospel with one rolling road.
I love a good discussion and am not frightened to take part :wink:
-
I actually agree with Mcavity on this point, :chicken: but i am not willing to die on my sword trying to dispute any claims, Because i also have not got a clue. :pomppomp:
I certainly wouldn't enter into every discussion on the point knowing Sweet F.A about it apart from the readings from one rolling road. :popcornsoda: :signLOL:
:surprised:
Being an engineer for 10 years, i do know a little about it. And agree dont take for gospel with one rolling road.
I love a good discussion and am not frightened to take part :wink:
Ok Phil seeing as you have been a engineer for 10 years. explain to me how a hand built engine can produce 100 BHP more than a factory built one. i know its possible but dont understand how. (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ftomashandmilly%2FDaft_stuff%2Fnewspaper.gif&hash=45aa353ab73a7ec62b71500d9cc0184a7cfede2e)
-
I actually agree with Mcavity on this point, :chicken: but i am not willing to die on my sword trying to dispute any claims, Because i also have not got a clue. :pomppomp:
I certainly wouldn't enter into every discussion on the point knowing Sweet F.A about it apart from the readings from one rolling road. :popcornsoda: :signLOL:
Sig worthy :grin:
-
.Perhaps you should watch Discovery abit more how they assemble a ferrari V8/V10 engine, a Aston Martin v10, or Lambo powerplant. We are talking supercars here which when the terminology of hand build is quoted.
All also when we are talking large ammounts of horsepower as each engine can be different.
Much more then a piddly 4 cylinder unit like we have.
Hope this helps tom. :smiley:
oh and ive just eaten so not hungry :wink:
-
If all engines were exactly the same, maintained the same (with the same service parts and consumables like oil), ran by the owner in the same manner, fuelled the same and had the same mileage, then they would all make the same power.
The thing is not all engines are even the same, all it takes is a slight change in the mix of the alloy used and you'll get a stronger engine/weaker engine with either better or worse wear properties, heat dissipation etc etc. A kinked pipe at production, a different supplier from MY-XX to MY-XY can change things.
One batch build can have completely different outputs to another.
The RR day is basically a lottery and to be taken with a pinch of salt at times. The only way to tell would be to strip the engine out of the car and bench test it.
:happy2:
-
.Perhaps you should watch Discovery abit more how they assemble a ferrari V8/V10 engine, a Aston Martin v10, or Lambo powerplant. We are talking supercars here which when the terminology of hand build is quoted.
All also when we are talking large ammounts of horsepower as each engine can be different.
Much more then a piddly 4 cylinder unit like we have.
Hope this helps tom. :smiley:
oh and ive just eaten so not hungry :wink:
So ten years of being a engineer and your answer is watch discovery. :laugh: :congrats:
At the end of the day Phil if it was as black and white as you think it is then a leading engineer somewhere would have been able to measure and document the results.
As i mentioned i am with you on what factory output is but thats just me trying to apply common sense and not a bluff about knowing how it all works. :wink:
-
If all engines were exactly the same, maintained the same (with the same service parts and consumables like oil), ran by the owner in the same manner, fuelled the same and had the same mileage, then they would all make the same power.
The thing is not all engines are even the same, all it takes is a slight change in the mix of the alloy used and you'll get a stronger engine/weaker engine with either better or worse wear properties, heat dissipation etc etc. A kinked pipe at production, a different supplier from MY-XX to MY-XY can change things.
One batch build can have completely different outputs to another.
The RR day is basically a lottery and to be taken with a pinch of salt at times. The only way to tell would be to strip the engine out of the car and bench test it.
:happy2:
Agree. I seem to remember when i was a young apprentice mechanic (building Mitec Midas Kit Cars) talking about a certain Pinto 2.0 being quick. obvoiusly an older engine but there were difference in power output from 1 engine to the next. Also, if you read up the MK1 Focus RS and most 1990's Skylines are all reported to ahve VERY healthy horses........
As for VAG's producing more BHP than factory i cannot say but i would like to make a point. BHP sells cars (to an extent) and i woulddnt think that it would be in VW's interest to under cut a cars performance.... particulary a performance car like the GTI, ED30 etc.
-
............off to watch another eppisode of "How do they do it"
-
^^
Sounds like fighting talk that!!
Fight, fight, fight, fight :popcornsoda: :signLOL:
-
i agree with you both John and Ben, but for an engine that was made with the same bits as the car built next, to get 30bhp (10%) is alot of difference. All production cars cannot be sold as ...
"yes sir this car has 227bhp,or you could have one thats 265bhp and the parts guy was on Speed!.... but if your unlucky, it may only be 207bhp if the parts assembly bod felt poorly and wanted an early finish".
They are all built to the same specification and engine variation would be no more then 1-2% difference from one to the other.
In my oppinion of course but havent seen next weeks eppisode on Discovery yet :happy2:
-
Come on guys, time for a group hug me thinks... :smiley:
-
^^ will do when this program finishes , im learning something !!! :signLOL:
-
when we took 10 czt's (all be it only lil 1.5turbos) down to forge's hug dyno, 5 of them were stock, mileage ranged from 2,000mils up to 15,000 on the 5 stock cars, all made at least 10bhp more than stock.
not sure if i should be saying this i might be facing a battering :P replies :scared:
-
How many of those were running v-power compared to standard unleaded ?
My wife's CZT was the first to have the consumer release of ecutek software applied. It had been run on V-power from day one.
Car was mapped at the Racing Line in Leeds (Dyno Dynamics rollers) it was producing 156 bhp (up from the 147 quoted) and 180lbs of torque (up from the 150 quoted).
-
what have i started!! the reason i ask is before i brought my gti i was looking at the golf 1.4 tsi and 2.0tdi sport 170bhp and gave revo a call on tunning and the guy said the gti was the better option and they had a few standard k03s tested at 10bhp more than factory output. so 207bhp not 197bhp, a vw engineer told me the same thing too?
So because i saw a review on 5th gear where they tested the ed30 against the focus st and introduced the ed30 saying it has 20bhp more than the normal gti i was thinking whats the point if it only has 20bhp more and the k03s are being tested at 207bhp before being remaped. So obviously some miss lead info!
I dont think i would change my ko3 for a ko4 ed30, at the time my car was the same price as the ed30s and stil is worth the same as a few.but i am happy with the k03 gti, u just grow to love your car! :happy2:
-
Hi Guys , new to the forum ,
Thought this was an intresting thread to post on first :smiley:.
Been reading with interest , i have a MK2 Leon Cupra , and its running 267 bhp standard according to rolling roads , claimed output is 240 bhp.
On seatcupra.net most Cupras which are rolling roaded do make above stock figures.
With regards to manufactures claims of bhp , i am led to believe they give an average account of the power figure they produce ,very similarly to fuel consumption figures , and btw i can get no where near SEATs claim either , so this shows there are inaccuracies and its not a complete science.
Tolerances on engine components and build standards , materials and process will have a marked influence on what a cars final bhp figures will be , unless we know what tolerances are involved in all the components we can not even begin to understand what figures will actually be able to be achieved.
Concessions on parts happen all the time ,for instance if a turbo charger vains are cast or machined slightly wrong but give better airflow they may be concessed and be deemed within limits , but inreality might add 1% performance , which might not sound much but how will that 1% affect other components in the engine ? by the time the bhp is measured it could produce 5% more power , this is purely an example.
oh and btw i have been an engineer for 21 years :smiley: but i certainly dont know everything about everything and i dont watch discovery lol
-
Welcome Rob. :grin: :happy2:
-
Hey there rob, welcome along. Nice to see another yellow cupra on here lol.
-
How many of those were running v-power compared to standard unleaded ?
My wife's CZT was the first to have the consumer release of ecutek software applied. It had been run on V-power from day one.
Car was mapped at the Racing Line in Leeds (Dyno Dynamics rollers) it was producing 156 bhp (up from the 147 quoted) and 180lbs of torque (up from the 150 quoted).
Hello! you over on coltclub too aint you! so what do you drive? no they were not on v power but there were claims it made a difference! your mrs still got the czt?
-
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !
Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ? They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....
My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....
What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ??? Just a thought ? I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!
-
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !
Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ? They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....
My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....
What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ??? Just a thought ? I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!
you car was built on a friday! about 4:30pm :signLOL:
-
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !
Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ? They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....
My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....
What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ??? Just a thought ? I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!
you car was built on a friday! about 4:30pm :signLOL:
:fighting: :grin:
-
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !
Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ? They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....
My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....
What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ??? Just a thought ? I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!
you car was built on a friday! about 4:30pm :signLOL:
And finished Tuesday after the Bank Holiday weekend when people are still P!ssed up :laugh: :P
-
FWIW my 230ps Edition 30 produced 229bhp on Superchips rolling road when standard ..... the rolling road which has given figures up to 250 'ish as standard for Edition 30's !
Now is my car worse as standard than the others, is mine less 'run in', is their rolling road or operator variable, is the weather the culprit or are some Edition 30's just "better" than others ? They drove mine and said it felt exactly like those producing more power ..... they could detect no difference in how it felt ....
My personal view - some will be 'better' but 95% will be within 10bhp of the manufacturers figures .....
What about this though - as most remap to the same sort of figures (300bhp) no matter what they were producing as standard does this mean that there are different versions - power wise - of the 'standard' VW Edition 30 map ??? Just a thought ? I know of one that produced 25bhp more than mine as standard at Superchips but only 1bhp more when the same map was applied as to my car!
you car was built on a friday! about 4:30pm :signLOL:
And finished Tuesday after the Bank Holiday weekend when people are still P!ssed up :laugh: :P
:angry015: :grin:
Still as quick as a VXR8 as I found today when I tested one :laugh: :laugh:
-
Hi Guys , new to the forum ,
Thought this was an intresting thread to post on first :smiley:.
Been reading with interest , i have a MK2 Leon Cupra , and its running 267 bhp standard according to rolling roads , claimed output is 240 bhp.
On seatcupra.net most Cupras which are rolling roaded do make above stock figures.
With regards to manufactures claims of bhp , i am led to believe they give an average account of the power figure they produce ,very similarly to fuel consumption figures , and btw i can get no where near SEATs claim either , so this shows there are inaccuracies and its not a complete science.
Tolerances on engine components and build standards , materials and process will have a marked influence on what a cars final bhp figures will be , unless we know what tolerances are involved in all the components we can not even begin to understand what figures will actually be able to be achieved.
Concessions on parts happen all the time ,for instance if a turbo charger vains are cast or machined slightly wrong but give better airflow they may be concessed and be deemed within limits , but inreality might add 1% performance , which might not sound much but how will that 1% affect other components in the engine ? by the time the bhp is measured it could produce 5% more power , this is purely an example.
oh and btw i have been an engineer for 21 years :smiley: but i certainly dont know everything about everything and i dont watch discovery lol
Here's what I know about it and here's a bit of resume as to where my info originates.
I've toured 3 OEM engine building plants, have friends and associates that work at OEM final assembly and R&D centers, employ several mechanical engineers, most with OEM experience, and watch Discovery to boot!
Mass produced, modularly manufactured engines are assembled with a range of tolerances and the public info is usually given as 1-3% depending on the OEM for variance in power output.
The tolerances that are most important to power delivery are weight of the internals and clearances of the moving and sealing parts.
I'm sure everyone's heard of "Wednesday motors" as being these factory freaks that make 10 to 20% more than advertised. This is true to an extent but the real maximum difference is more like 5%. This is gained by comparing an average engine build to a completely balanced and blueprinted engine. Balanced and blueprinted means every weight is perfectly matched and toleranced and every clearance of moving and sealing assemblies is perfect and is usually accomplished by hand. Statistically, it is possible for a mass produced engine to be perfectly assembled and it has certainly happened at some point. So, yes, you could get lucky but not anywhere near as much as people romanticize.
Regarding hand built engines, as long as the guy doing the assembly hits all of his assembly specs each one should be less than 1% every time. Our raceteam builds quite a few engine and heads by hand and of course is looking for every last ounce of power and full blueprinting and specific balancing is performed with each one and the power numbers on our dyno are amazingly consistent. I've watched 2 different engines in the same chassis dyno within 2 hp of each other over and over again.
Regarding the differences between OEM power ratings and what we see on the RR:
OEM's collect their dyno numbers at the engine on an engine dyno. The differences between a chassis dyno and engine dyno alone are enough to make it impossible to determine by a RR if an OEM has over or under rated an engine or not.
Most do underrate their results however, based on their own RR testing because the Marketing Dept's know that if they don't hit their adverted numbers by independent RR testing, there will be bad press. Most OEM's also throw a sample of each vehicle or every vehicle depending on model on a RR at the final assembly plant before release to the dealerships as part of their own quality control processes.
Hope this helps.
-
Very interesting Thanks Keith. :popcornsoda:
-
Cars dont produce higher then manufactured figures unless modified.
Not always true.
You believe what you want to. Vw cannot sell a car thats not technically it stated output. Going on different rolling road days will make you think that they dont, and the companys rollers will make you think this too, but as a "Production Car" it wont.
Vw ,SEAT who or whatever production car manufacturers dont just give a rough idea, its fact. (give or take 1-2%)
Hand build engines for example, Aston Martin, are hand built and will be different from car to car.
Is this or opinion or have you got some science to back up your claims.
VAG are known to underrate their engines and performance figures. They call it headroom. The same car that is advertised as 240hp in germany, has to make that same 240hp in dubai and iceland. These cars are built to make their claimed hp from the freezing cold, to the superhot.
Also there have been plenty of cases where manufacturers have overtstated the output of a car and understated.
Nissan GTR understated, hyundai coupe overstated etc etc.
But anyway keith has given the best answer, and just for a slight but random fact, porsche engine tolerances are stupidly tight, think they work within 3% whilst most major manufacturers work within 5% iirc. The percentages I have said might be wrong, but what I do remember for certain was that they were a hell of alot less than pretty much anyone else.
-
Hi Guys , new to the forum ,
Thought this was an intresting thread to post on first :smiley:.
Been reading with interest , i have a MK2 Leon Cupra , and its running 267 bhp standard according to rolling roads , claimed output is 240 bhp.
On seatcupra.net most Cupras which are rolling roaded do make above stock figures.
With regards to manufactures claims of bhp , i am led to believe they give an average account of the power figure they produce ,very similarly to fuel consumption figures , and btw i can get no where near SEATs claim either , so this shows there are inaccuracies and its not a complete science.
Tolerances on engine components and build standards , materials and process will have a marked influence on what a cars final bhp figures will be , unless we know what tolerances are involved in all the components we can not even begin to understand what figures will actually be able to be achieved.
Concessions on parts happen all the time ,for instance if a turbo charger vains are cast or machined slightly wrong but give better airflow they may be concessed and be deemed within limits , but inreality might add 1% performance , which might not sound much but how will that 1% affect other components in the engine ? by the time the bhp is measured it could produce 5% more power , this is purely an example.
oh and btw i have been an engineer for 21 years :smiley: but i certainly dont know everything about everything and i dont watch discovery lol
Here's what I know about it and here's a bit of resume as to where my info originates.
I've toured 3 OEM engine building plants, have friends and associates that work at OEM final assembly and R&D centers, employ several mechanical engineers, most with OEM experience, and watch Discovery to boot!
Mass produced, modularly manufactured engines are assembled with a range of tolerances and the public info is usually given as 1-3% depending on the OEM for variance in power output.
The tolerances that are most important to power delivery are weight of the internals and clearances of the moving and sealing parts.
I'm sure everyone's heard of "Wednesday motors" as being these factory freaks that make 10 to 20% more than advertised. This is true to an extent but the real maximum difference is more like 5%. This is gained by comparing an average engine build to a completely balanced and blueprinted engine. Balanced and blueprinted means every weight is perfectly matched and toleranced and every clearance of moving and sealing assemblies is perfect and is usually accomplished by hand. Statistically, it is possible for a mass produced engine to be perfectly assembled and it has certainly happened at some point. So, yes, you could get lucky but not anywhere near as much as people romanticize.
Regarding hand built engines, as long as the guy doing the assembly hits all of his assembly specs each one should be less than 1% every time. Our raceteam builds quite a few engine and heads by hand and of course is looking for every last ounce of power and full blueprinting and specific balancing is performed with each one and the power numbers on our dyno are amazingly consistent. I've watched 2 different engines in the same chassis dyno within 2 hp of each other over and over again.
Regarding the differences between OEM power ratings and what we see on the RR:
OEM's collect their dyno numbers at the engine on an engine dyno. The differences between a chassis dyno and engine dyno alone are enough to make it impossible to determine by a RR if an OEM has over or under rated an engine or not.
Most do underrate their results however, based on their own RR testing because the Marketing Dept's know that if they don't hit their adverted numbers by independent RR testing, there will be bad press. Most OEM's also throw a sample of each vehicle or every vehicle depending on model on a RR at the final assembly plant before release to the dealerships as part of their own quality control processes.
Hope this helps.
Cheers for your reply Keith. pretty much somes it in a nutshell. :happy2:
-
This probably isn't going to add much to this debate (apart from making Phil Mc feel warm and fuzzy!) but when stock I took my Ed30 to the RR day at JKM last year and it produced 232 bhp (i.e 2 more than VW's claimed output). Now as then it is run on an exclusive diet of V-Power.
Pics of the car and map on the day are on the JKM website.
-
did you guys say the ed30 engine is identical to the one found in the cupra 240?
-
^^^ Yep :happy2:
-
This probably isn't going to add much to this debate (apart from making Phil Mc feel warm and fuzzy!) but when stock I took my Ed30 to the RR day at JKM last year and it produced 232 bhp (i.e 2 more than VW's claimed output). Now as then it is run on an exclusive diet of V-Power.
Pics of the car and map on the day are on the JKM website.
quiet a few have run simular figures shaun on other rolling road days , mine was down on one occasion but that was because of my use of Redex in the fuel tank :congrats:
If you fancy another RR day, one coming up on Saturday october 3rd :happy2:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=121304.370
And whats with the warm fuzzy feeling? :confused:
-
did you guys say the ed30 engine is identical to the one found in the cupra 240?
Nearly but not quite, accoarding to my sources on the discovery cha....... :ashamed:
-
realy 40 bhp (240 bhp - same as Seat Leon Cupra Engine)
240hp on a dyno?
Cupras seem to dyno around 265hp standard but yes as max has said its the same engine. A k04 is quite a different drive to a k03
265?
I bet that is from car to car and from dyno to dyno.
Be conservative - E30 has 30hp more than GTI.
-
If you look at remap figures you will be able toget up to a true 260-270bhp and 320lbft with a GTI and around 350-360bhp and 360lbft with an Edition 30. :happy2:
360bhp? :surprised: How does that happen?
-
If you look at remap figures you will be able toget up to a true 260-270bhp and 320lbft with a GTI and around 350-360bhp and 360lbft with an Edition 30. :happy2:
360bhp? :surprised: How does that happen?
2.5-3 grands worth of mods. All the cupras that have been rolling roaded on loads of different dynos over on scn all made around 265hp.
-
the key point with that number is that you would need to see what the car produced on the same dyno as std.
then derive a relative bhp difference :happy2:
-
If you look at remap figures you will be able toget up to a true 260-270bhp and 320lbft with a GTI and around 350-360bhp and 360lbft with an Edition 30. :happy2:
360bhp? :surprised: How does that happen?
This is with full bolt-ons. The K04 will flow to this as a max when tuned right to the max for fuelling and boost. :happy2:
Also you have to take into account the dyno lottery.
Last time out mine made 363bhp and 361lbft on Superchip HQ dyno (a little "generous" IMHO)
:driver:
-
My car was 260bhp standard on Stealth's rollers, and 228bhp on JKM's! :stupid:
-
My car was 260bhp standard on Stealth's rollers, and 228bhp on JKM's! :stupid:
@GolfGirl : which is OK (sort of lol) , if after remap you got 310bhp and 278bhp respectively (e.g. a common +50bhp increase).
@DomT : be good to see what you get :happy2:
-
@DomT : be good to see what you get :happy2:
Yes, am doing it purely out of science. You'll see from by build thread that dyno readings vary considerably and there are many reasons for this, operator error on correct vehicle strapping, errors on atmospheric perssure correction and so on.... I know that when I go down to JKM I will get results that will allow me to compare all my JKM results consistently. John - have you read Keith's article on Dyno's on the JKM website - a really informative read if you're that way inclined.
I'll be on RS Tunings Dyno Dynamics rollers on the 10th October, which are also renowned for "low" readings.
JonnyC got 350bhp, so it would be good for mine for a comparison.
-
If you look at remap figures you will be able toget up to a true 260-270bhp and 320lbft with a GTI and around 350-360bhp and 360lbft with an Edition 30. :happy2:
360bhp? :surprised: How does that happen?
This is with full bolt-ons. The K04 will flow to this as a max when tuned right to the max for fuelling and boost. :happy2:
Also you have to take into account the dyno lottery.
Last time out mine made 363bhp and 361lbft on Superchip HQ dyno (a little "generous" IMHO)
:driver:
What about the Bluefin claims?
http://www.superchips.co.uk/roadtest/VW%20Driver%20May07%20Golf%20GTI%20Edition30.PDF
are these BS? 307HP/401Nm for only £400ish!!! with no other bolt-ons? These claims are from Superchips using there dyno's. So why hasn't everyone got the Bluefin module?
-
You have to take BHP claims from tuners with a pinch of salt. Some quote 295bhp, some 310bhp from a simple remap. The best thing to do is go with a reputable tuner with decent aftersales and support. :happy2:
-
On the Bluefin pdf i just posted it states...
..."As soon as the Superchips engineers examined the maps in the Edition 30’s ECU in detail, they realised that they weren’t looking at a standard 2.0 T-FSI unit which had been simply tweaked. The ignition timing, boost level, injector timing and other parameters were much more akin to the basic settings used for the new S3. With its stronger engine block, upgraded bearings, stronger conrods and a different alloy for the cylinder head, as well as a bigger intercooler, different valve timing and bigger injectors, plus a revised turbo giving greater boost, Superchips had already re-mapped the S3 unit up to over 300 bhp, and there was no reason why they couldn’t do much the same to the Edition 30 GTI.
are they talking about the differences between the Edition30 and the standard GTi?
i thought the only difference was the Bigger Turbo!
-
You have to take BHP claims from tuners with a pinch of salt. Some quote 295bhp, some 310bhp from a simple remap. The best thing to do is go with a reputable tuner with decent aftersales and support. :happy2:
Are superchips not reputable??
-
They are talking about the difference between a GTI and an ED30. Most people thought that it was a simple remap that gave the extra power to the ED30 when it first came out and we were mocked for buying them. It was subsequently found that the ED30 had several differences to it's engine over the GTI and so we now mock those who mocked us :grin:
-
wow ......i love my ed30 :happy2:
-
wow ......i love my ed30 :happy2:
+1 :happy2:
-
Hurdy, i'll probably see you on the 10th oct, but is there any way of "pm-ing" you? I might need some advice on coilovers soon, or should i just make another coilover thread?
:happy2:
-
also taken from the pdf.....
..."Indeed it was, and one of the first aftermarket tuners in the UK to get their hands on the GTI Edition 30 was Superchips, based in Buckingham. The official tuning partner to Volkswagen Racing, Superchips has a long pedigree in electronic engine tuning, with more than 500,000 cars of all makes successfully modified over the last 27 years."
i guess superchips are one of the reputable ones. :smiley:
-
Superchips are good mate, i have it and the map is great, they are also helpful, i am a nuisance and have rang them a few times for stage 2 maps then stage 1 again and they just email them straight away :happy2:
-
Hurdy, i'll probably see you on the 10th oct, but is there any way of "pm-ing" you? I might need some advice on coilovers soon, or should i just make another coilover thread?
:happy2:
You just click on the bubble at the side of my post to PM me :happy2:
-
My (still) unmodded car has produced 232 and 227 bhp on the same RR. As others have said, different factors will influence bhp but there is meant to be a 30bhp between the GTI and the ED30.
Where are the results ofnthe last few RRs?
-
My (still) unmodded car has produced 232 and 227 bhp on the same RR. As others have said, different factors will influence bhp but there is meant to be a 30bhp between the GTI and the ED30.
Where are the results ofnthe last few RRs?
You should come along Jazz to jkm's up coming RR day, be good to see you.
-
Unless you are up for getting an engine on a bench dyno you will never know (even then it could be out by a bit)
RR's should be used as a before and after mod test, to give a rough idea if a mod has been beneficial and by how much.
The old leon cupra owners claimed (still do i expect) they could get well above what they actually could (bhp figures) after a remap. One of the more accurate RR's is JKM, this showed them up quite badly. Most cars (standard) that go on there hit the manufacturers figures. I would still never fully trust a RR though, tyre pressure, temp, petrol used all alter the outcome.
-
You should come along Jazz to jkm's up coming RR day, be good to see you.
I wanna go but it's a bit of a trek now I've moved back up to the midlands. I've just got an error on the dash for the exhaust. Fingers crossed this means a new exhaust.
-
They are talking about the difference between a GTI and an ED30. Most people thought that it was a simple remap that gave the extra power to the ED30 when it first came out and we were mocked for buying them. It was subsequently found that the ED30 had several differences to it's engine over the GTI and so we now mock those who mocked us :grin:
this is the exact words the dealer told me when i walked in the showroom and saw the ed30. its just remaped a extra tweenty odd brake.
-
:grin:
Guys , Phil takes a strong opinion on this issue , to which I dont subscribe, nor do i wish to discuss again here :driver:
Cheers John_0 :popcornsoda:
The day that someone actually can proove that a production Engine has performance bhp differences from the exact same made parts. Then im all ears. :happy2:
I would disagree. When the Golf 5 GTI first launched it had the AXX engine making 147kw which made 125kw on the wheels here in S.A. Then they kept the power figure at 147 claimed and mysteriously all the new BWA specced cars made around 135-140 kw on the wheels. BWA engine if you are in the know is around 162kw on the fly.
VW / Audi / Seat quite often under quote mainly due to testing there engines to make the required power at a claimed 40 degrees C. So when we run them in std temps they make more power.
-
kw? Its not a bloody lamp :signLOL:
-
kw? Its not a bloody lamp :signLOL:
http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Gallery/rollingroaddays/MK5%20GTI%2018%2003%2009/Dyno%20Graphs/SNS.gif
On rolling road, standard car. :stupid:
High temps and lower fuel grades will effect max out of the 2.0tfsi unit. In South Africa?? :wink: