MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Janner_Sy on September 28, 2009, 01:02:35 pm
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there doesnt seem to be many threads for information about with Water meth injection. Or when you do find a thread it has a cut and paste technical info guide on it, which is mostly sales jargon etc.
The US forums have threads on it, but are filled with pointless bitching so are irratating to read through. Some have said the difference is huge, especially with reducing heatsoak, but it is a lot cooler over here so maybe we wouldnt see that much of an increase.
Hopefully Dubtek and other people will be able to provide some good info on this. Im not sure if anybody has used this on this forum yet.
heres a list of things i woiuld be keen to find out.
1- power/torque increases when used ontop of a standard remap
2- Power/torque figures when used in conjunction with a water/methanol specific remap to make the most of it.
3- How long a mixture will last,
4- Can it be set up to only operate on full throttle or will it be on all the time.
5- What different water/meth ratios will give what sort of results
6- how does it work, in dimple terms
7-can it damage your car
8- best places to store the mixture
9- will it clean out your engine like nos would
and im sure there are lots more
I mega keen on getting this, and am putting money aside so i can get some ASAP.
My understanding is it injects the water meth mixture into the inlet cooling the inlet temps down, preventing the air fuel mixture from detonating early, meaning you can advance the timing for m0reoomph. I have also read that it also acts a bit like an intercooler. and can prolong the life of your engine.
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I dont want to just COPY/PASTE here but i found this useful
http://www.vagfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=254
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bill at badger 5 runs and sells these kits. He could give you some real life info.
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badger 5???
is he a memeber on here
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badger 5???
is he a memeber on here
I don't think so but he is on Briskoda and SCN.
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Bill's not really tinkered with any 2.0T FSI motors yet...he's main interest is still the 1.8T and BT'ing them.
He does sell the Snow Performance WMI kit however.
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he also sells the devils own kits, which are as good as snow performance and a fraction of the price, he know s his stuff on the vag engine's, water/methanol works good on any turbo'd cars ,
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So the options manufacturer wise then are
snow performance
devils own kits
BSH water meth
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So the options manufacturer wise then are
snow performance
devils own kits
BSH water meth
I rate devils own!
GB anyone?
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Id be up for that. provided it is good value,
whats the going price for one of these, difficulty in fitting/costs
you say you rate devils own have you used it on previous cars?
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Id be up for that. provided it is good value,
whats the going price for one of these, difficulty in fitting/costs
you say you rate devils own have you used it on previous cars?
You can get a decent WM kit on ebay for about £250 all in..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120441829380&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT
theres another company, cooling mist.. basically they all do the same thing, as long as the pump has a decent pressure rating.
I have seen in use a DO kit on an adui s4 over 500 bhp and its certainly well made and works as expected.
I would say we not just go for the cheapest option, but one which we know will provide what we need for the VAG platform. and that one would be the snow performance 2.0 tfsi system.
i have a great how to guide here for the DO kit - http://members.shaw.ca/cadbury/DIYDevilsOwna.pdf
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ID BUY FROM BILL, HIS PRICES ARENT MUCH MORE THAN £250 ANYWAY, AND IF IT GOES WRONG HE IS ONLY A PHONE CALL AWAY, I AM ALWAYS A BIT WARY ABOUT BUYING FROM ABROAD OR OF E BAY AS ONCE YOU HAVE PAYED AND LEFT FEEDBACK THEY ARE NOT REALLY INTERESTED ANYMORE, AT LEAST WITH BILL IF ANYTHING GOES WRONG HE WILL SORT IT OUT FOR YOU
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ID BUY FROM BILL, HIS PRICES ARENT MUCH MORE THAN £250 ANYWAY, AND IF IT GOES WRONG HE IS ONLY A PHONE CALL AWAY, I AM ALWAYS A BIT WARY ABOUT BUYING FROM ABROAD OR OF E BAY AS ONCE YOU HAVE PAYED AND LEFT FEEDBACK THEY ARE NOT REALLY INTERESTED ANYMORE, AT LEAST WITH BILL IF ANYTHING GOES WRONG HE WILL SORT IT OUT FOR YOU
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthesiliconjungle.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F06%2Fcapslock.jpg&hash=1a1aee55a29867885d4819fa820a94964eeb94d6)
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There is a guy on Briskoda with the username based around Devils Own. I think he is a UK agent.
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Water Methanol injection is a fantastic Product with many different uses. here are a few links where there isn't any arguing to sift through.
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/faq.php?cID=1 (http://www.alcohol-injection.com/faq.php?cID=1)
http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_type.php?type=gasoline (http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_type.php?type=gasoline)
You will gather from reading through both FAQ pages that at first glance there isn't much difference between the two kits. I personally lean towards DO kits but I will get into that in a minute...
There are Three main benefits that are usually covered with the installation of Water/Meth. Power, Cleaning Property's & Fuel economy.
Power:
The tuner you use is going to make a pretty big impact on whether or not you will be able to get the full power benefit of one of these kits. With Chip Tuning that doesn't offer switchable maps you will probably see about 10 to 14 HP. This is very comparable to throwing 109 Octane in the tank of a completely stock car. The biggest power gains are going to come with chip tuning that offers some sort of switchable "Race Fuel File" pretty much all of the most reputable software companies have this option, GIAC and their flash loader, REVO with their SPS, and even APR with that nifty switcher that is built into the column. When you have the availability to switch to a MAP that runs a higher boost level and more advanced timing you will see huge power gains and can really take advantage of the octane boost. In some of our studies we have seen up to 40 WHP paired with an appropriate MAP on the 2.0t FSI.
Cleaning:
The cleaning benefit is also huge with these kits. It is a commonly known issue that there is a huge amount of build up on the intake valves on the FSI cars due to the direct injection and horrible stock PCV system. The water pretty much steam cleans the valves as it passes by on it's way into the cylinder. In my personal experience with the FSI these kits do a better job at keeping valves clean then they do at penetrating the massive amounts of build-up that forms on the MKV.
Fuel economy:
Fuel economy is increased in the gasoline cars just like if you were to run "Race Fuel". The extra 20-25% of octane provided by the methanol allows for more spark timing advance and a leaner air/fuel ratio with the use of a programmer. Both of these factors not only improve power, their efficiency gains improve mileage as well. Additionally, many modern cars will detect the combustion of the methanol and reduce the injection of gasoline accordingly through the adjustment of long-term fuel trim values in the vehicles computer. This can directly and positively impact gasoline fuel economy. Gains of 5-15% are possible depending on how the vehicle is tuned and driven.
For diesel Vehicles The MPG-MAXâ„¢ systems from Snow Performance is specifically designed to enhance Power and fuel economy. Both the diesel MPG-MAXâ„¢ systems are specifically designed to inject a very small and precise amount of water/methanol under normal driving conditions such as accelerating away from a stop light or driving up a slight grade. Gains of 10-20% are possible depending on how the vehicle is tuned and driven.
Recap for OP:
1- power/torque increases when used on top of a standard remap
8 - 15 WHP
2- Power/torque figures when used in conjunction with a water/methanol specific remap to make the most of it.
25 - 40 WHP
3- How long a mixture will last,
Depending on driving habits you will go through about 1 gallon of mix to a tank of gas.
4- Can it be set up to only operate on full throttle or will it be on all the time.
The progressive controller option on the stage 2 kits makes this very adjustable.
5- What different water/meth ratios will give what sort of results.
The more methanol you use the more octane you see the more water you use the more cooling you see.
6- Can it damage your car
Not if installed properly.
7- best places to store the mixture
Garage, shed, barn...? check label on methanol container.
8- will it clean out your engine like nos would
YES!
In my own personal experience I lean towards the Devils own kit. The Snow kits have there benefit but for the 2.0t direct injection motors Devils Own has my vote. Just about every kit on the market has an adjustable progressive-rate controller. The reason DO has everyone licked is because there progressive rate controller is Pulse regulated. That means that as your car builds boost the pump is being sent full 12V pulses until it reaches the specified full-on mode that you set on the controller. The benefit is that you are seeing better atomization of the mixture all the way through the power ban thus seeing more performance and better cooling. Other benefits are that DO's standard pump is a strong 250 psi pump There nozzles are of their own design and focused around ease of installation and the bulk heads that let you to tap into the window washer tank allow you to have an indicator light on your dash letting you know when it's time for a refill.
We are master Distributors of Devils own and Snow performance, we currently supply multiple dealers with there Water/Methanol kits all over the world including BADGER 5. Dubtek being a BSH Dealer also has full access to these kits.
Link:
http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/home.php?cat=703 (http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/home.php?cat=703)
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Totally irrelevant really, but I run a 50% W/M mix (Snow Performance stage 2, boost regulated) in my diesel and it is AWESOME!
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Guessing you run that with a controller and a separate tank, you running it all the time?
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Guessing you run that with a controller and a separate tank, you running it all the time?
Not at the moment hes not. :P
Sorry Jase. Hope its sorted soon. :ashamed:
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thanks very much for that justin that was exactly the sort of info i wanted to see. its also great to finally get a link without any bickering to read.
would you reccomend a seperate container for this or just to use the standard washer bottle.
another question is should we run out of methanol, could you continue its use by just using water to keep the inlet temps low.
8-15WHP, id be happy with that improvement on the fly wheel, lol. bang for buck this seems to be very very good value for money. especially when added fuel economy and engine longetivity is thrown in as well.
im very supised this hasnt caught on over here yet. I know its massive with the lancer Evo guys
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Yeah, separate tank and controller in the engine bay. Had to make room so battery went in the boot....
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fdevonutopia%2FWATER_METH%2FDSCN2222.jpg&hash=952fc817fb4aa89b2495236315a23cdee11e7317)
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thanks very much for that justin that was exactly the sort of info i wanted to see. its also great to finally get a link without any bickering to read.
would you reccomend a seperate container for this or just to use the standard washer bottle.
another question is should we run out of methanol, could you continue its use by just using water to keep the inlet temps low.
8-15WHP, id be happy with that improvement on the fly wheel, lol. bang for buck this seems to be very very good value for money. especially when added fuel economy and engine longetivity is thrown in as well.
im very supised this hasnt caught on over here yet. I know its massive with the lancer Evo guys
I prefer to use the stock tank. it is a cleaner look and you can use the indicator light to know when you run out.
Straight water can be used, just might want to stick to a slightly smaller nozzle like a DO3 instead of a DO4.
I'm surprised too but it is very new in the VW industry all together. Guys have been running them on Turbo Grand Nationals over here since the early 80's. VW didn't have a water cooled turbo engine until the 1.8t...
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justin have you go tnay pics of the install and whre the controller is placed withi.n the car
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Taking this back to base level - where do you buy methanol and how do you clean your screen if the injection is using that tank?
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Taking this back to base level - where do you buy methanol and how do you clean your screen if the injection is using that tank?
1) - http://lmgtfy.com/?q=where+to+buy+methanol
2) - You cant
:)
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:signLOL: that was funny
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Taking this back to base level - where do you buy methanol and how do you clean your screen if the injection is using that tank?
1) - http://lmgtfy.com/?q=where+to+buy+methanol
2) - You cant
:)
wow..that was usefull
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In a nut-shell it answered the 2 questions proposed :fighting2:
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:signLOL:
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http://www.jabbasport.com/store/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=2001220TFSI
I am sure we have a forum member on here who works for Jabba with a nice white Ed30 maybe he can get us a Group Buy discount!
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http://www.jabbasport.com/store/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=2001220TFSI
I am sure we have a forum member on here who works for Jabba with a nice white Ed30 maybe he can get us a Group Buy discount!
i am curious as to why there is a specific 2.0T FSI water meth kit as apposed to the universal ones
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I believe the 2.0tfsi kit is connected to the MAF this then controls how much meth is released - seems a more sensible and safer method than than the generic kits
Im pretty tempted by it :happy2:
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Ahhh right, I was under the impression Methanol was quite a dangerous/poisonous substance and therefore would arouse suspicion buying in bulk. I'd have thought there'd be laws on storing it too?
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I believe the 2.0tfsi kit is connected to the MAF this then controls how much meth is released - seems a more sensible and safer method than than the generic kits
Im pretty tempted by it :happy2:
GROUP buy via DUBtek anyone?
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Ahhh right, I was under the impression Methanol was quite a dangerous/poisonous substance and therefore would arouse suspicion buying in bulk. I'd have thought there'd be laws on storing it too?
I had no problems buying a 230 litre drum of the stuff, 99.9% pure. It is stored (sealed) at my mate's garage, so is safe enough. Just best to not be smoking when draining some off for my car.... :rolleye:
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http://www.jabbasport.com/store/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=2001220TFSI
I am sure we have a forum member on here who works for Jabba with a nice white Ed30 maybe he can get us a Group Buy discount!
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=560
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Ok i dont want to get blasted again but im only trying to help by posting the following.
I have seen a few meth installs go wrong and basically F*ck up the throttle body...
so another issue to post here would be, where would be the best place to inject the meth/water?
some people do it right into the TB resulting in this...
Red stains are from the meth...
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fss93%2Fiman973%2FSU1HMDAxNDktMjAwOTExMDItMTk1NS5qcGc.jpg&hash=59c8d5107259280cf34adf6d108e1f634ec556b3)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fss93%2Fiman973%2FSU1HMDAxNTAtMjAwOTExMDItMTk1NS5qcGc.jpg&hash=e88e1f94b414a9b0dedfc58e8ccb136d7a016cc7)
Broken flap...
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fss93%2Fiman973%2FSU1HMDAxNDYtMjAwOTExMDItMTkzMC5qcGc.jpg&hash=2581e2bf235cc6d148d39281775e127abeafa397)
install location...
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb84%2Flewxcore%2Fdualnoz.jpg&hash=e0984cb975a07c9ef4cebeaeff2418b74955ab78)
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justin have you go tnay pics of the install and whre the controller is placed withi.n the car
I dont have any pics but there are two places people seem to like it best. First is inside the change tray. Second is actually on the dash just above the steering column.
I am working on modifying a New South Boost Gauge column pod to mount one too...
Taking this back to base level - where do you buy methanol and how do you clean your screen if the injection is using that tank?
I dont know what you have over there but Window washer fluid here is a 60/40 Mixture of Water/Methanol. A lot of guys just use window washer fluid for there W/M Kits. I prefer to Buy a Gallon of raw Methanol and mix it my self and use it to wash my "screen" ...
i am curious as to why there is a specific 2.0T FSI water meth kit as apposed to the universal ones
There isn't a 2.0t speciffic kit. There are VW kits that work with the VW MAP sensor... the Stage 2 kit that I recommend is compatible with the 1.8t 2.0t G60 and a few others.
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There isn't a 2.0t speciffic kit. There are VW kits that work with the VW MAP sensor... the Stage 2 kit that I recommend is compatible with the 1.8t 2.0t G60 and a few others.
what be this one mate?
http://www.jabbasport.com/store/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=2001220TFSI
Snow Performance Stage 2 2.0T FSI Boost Cooler
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Ok i dont want to get blasted again but im only trying to help by posting the following.
I have seen a few meth installs go wrong and basically F*ck up the throttle body...
so another issue to post here would be, where would be the best place to inject the meth/water?
some people do it right into the TB resulting in this...
install location...
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb84%2Flewxcore%2Fdualnoz.jpg&hash=e0984cb975a07c9ef4cebeaeff2418b74955ab78)
Excellent question?
I don't know about the red stain. I would say that is more from using a mixture with some sort of conditioner in it. When you buy Methanol you need to make sure it is "Neat"... that means it is completely raw.
I have seen one where the throttle body has gotten stuck but in this cases there was a larger size nozzle being used. I relay don't see this as a big issue seeing as though this problem was cured by a quick wipe down of the TB and a quick squirt of silicone spray into the center pin. I reinstalled it back on the customers car and it has been working just fine since. ( this was about a year ago)
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There isn't a 2.0t speciffic kit. There are VW kits that work with the VW MAP sensor... the Stage 2 kit that I recommend is compatible with the 1.8t 2.0t G60 and a few others.
what be this one mate?
http://www.jabbasport.com/store/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=2001220TFSI
Snow Performance Stage 2 2.0T FSI Boost Cooler
sorry, I was referring to Devils Own... The snow MAF kit is car specific because the different MAF signals...
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found some pics of an install here.
so here is another option of where to have the mixture injected.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi756.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx202%2Fsimonskerton%2Fcar%2520pics%2F101_17191.jpg&hash=018b53336d777a488ffa7d3eba3f6a04279b2530)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi756.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx202%2Fsimonskerton%2Fcar%2520pics%2F101_17201.jpg&hash=945a5ee99caa21e24c114741d4f4ef19ccd21af9)
im very interested in a group buy if dubtek wants to sort something out for us.
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@justin
my car is a K03 TFSI, at stage 2+ and ive been considering an intercooler as on multiple dyno runs my car does suffer with a little bit of heatsoak.
Am i right in saying that with the water meth mixture reducing the inlet temps etc that this should do the same job to a certain degree if not just as well.
I will be getting an intercooler either way, but wasnt going to get it until summer. Obviously both wil be better
Sy :happy2:
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found some pics of an install here.
so here is another option of where to have the mixture injected.
im very interested in a group buy if dubtek wants to sort something out for us.
That is Little Reds car! He is one of our best customers...
Direct port injection does very little for cooling IAT's it is more used for a fueling substitute.
@justin
my car is a K03 TFSI, at stage 2+ and ive been considering an intercooler as on multiple dyno runs my car does suffer with a little bit of heatsoak.
Am i right in saying that with the water meth mixture reducing the inlet temps etc that this should do the same job to a certain degree if not just as well.
I will be getting an intercooler either way, but wasn't going to get it until summer. Obviously both wil be better
Sy :happy2:
You are absolutely correct. Most people use W/M in substitution of an FMIC. I'm with you on running both though. :happy2:
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is it possible to get a pic of other places to install the nozzles please.
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Most people will inject post intercooler, whether stock or not, so I would imagine cooling effects are negligible. Mine injects right after my front mount and it has about 3 feet of intercooler pipework to the manifold to get an even distribution in the charged air. Have to admit though, I was well impressed with the spray action of the snow performance nozzles. A real fine mist which is perfect.
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once i eventually decide on a kit and install it, be having a custom map of sorts installed to make the most of the water methanol injection,
but will it be alright to just keep my bluefin stage 2+ map as it is for the moment and stilll have the watewr meth it running on top. would i still see some gains(albeit, not as big) and wold it be safe
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Just sent DubTek a bunch of info on the Water/Meth kits to get started on a group buy!!!
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much appreciated justin.
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for guys interested in watermeth injection. here is a very very complete how to guide using devils own water meth injection.
http://members.shaw.ca/cadbury/DIYDevilsOwna.pdf
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Just do it simon, especially if you have Revo, as you could adjust the timing to take advantage of it :P
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If it was me I would get a proper size turbo first like a GT2871. :wink:
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Just do it simon, especially if you have Revo, as you could adjust the timing to take advantage of it :P
i dont have revo but i will have the option of swapping between the two custom maps when i need to,
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Ok that would be ok then (once youve got it setup properly)
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Ok that would be ok then (once youve got it setup properly)
WE NEED PICS OF YOUR INSTALL[/font][/font]
you got any pics of the install on yours dan, ie where your toggle switches, pump, nozzles and pipes etc are.
id say im 95% set to buy it, just the thought that no one has done it over here on a k03 yet. so im the guinea pig lol.
im off to a DD rolling road on wednesday. going to get my base figures of what im at now. im ordering some SFS turbo hoses next week as well so ill get do another RR to see the increase on them. Then it'll be water meth install. Id like to get as close to 300bhp as possible on a DD roller, but it all depends on how high I can get on wednesday
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keep bugging me and i'll get down to it one day :D
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keep bugging me and i'll get down to it one day :D
you done it yet then dan :P :wink:
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WHAT IS WATER METHANOL INJECTION
Water injection systems prevent or suppress detonation. It works by spraying an extremely fine mist direct into the intake manifold at a pre selected boost pressure or MAF signal
Alcohol/methanol injection doesn't do the same things as NOS does. None of the same dangers. It is acting as an intercooler enhancer and octane booster. It can lower the cylinder temps or exhaust gasses by upto 300 degrees and makes 95 octane fuel basically look like 112 octane.
Fuel accounts for 70% of engine cooling and FACT Water absorbs SIX times more heat than fuel and evaporates instantly inside the intake manifold taking with it a great deal of heat, so you can imagine the massive cooling effect of water injection.
HOW MUCH CAN AIR TEMP EFFECT PERFORMANCE YOU ASK???
From the table below, you will note that air at 0C contains almost 30% more oxygen per given volume, than air at 77C.
Air Temperature
Air Density
% increase of oxygen
77C
0.9950 kg/m^3
40C
1.113 kg/m^3
+ 12% oxygen
27C
1.1614 kg/m^3
+ 17% oxygen
0C
1.2763 kg/m^3
+ 28% oxygen
So if your car is tuned for say 12.0:1 fuel mixture (rich) for maximum power and the air going into your engine is at 77C, you might make say 241bhp @ wheels. Now if you could get that intake air down to 0C and still have your engine tuned at 12.0:1 fuel mixture, you will make 30% more power based simply on oxygen levels in the air = 241bhp @ wheels x 1.3 = 314bhp @ wheels. That’s a massive 73bhp increase!!!
Now obviously, unless your using dry ice somewhere along your intake path, you won’t get the air to 0C, but that is just to give you an indication of the true effects of air temps and their relation to power output.
WHAT BENEFIT DOES THIS GIVE ME
-The kit allows you to run higher boost, advance ignition and lean out air fuel ratios
-Alcohol does not cause any problems to your engine. It actually "steam" cleans the inside of your throttle body, intake, heads, valves, and exhaust!
INCREASING THE POWER OUTPUT BY INCREASING THE BOOST PRESSURE. WOULD ALCOHOL/WATER INJECTION HELP THEN?
It all depends, if you have good quality fuel and the ambient temperature is not too high you can normally get away with 2-3 psi of boost increase without using alcohol/water injection and will not run into detonation problems.
On the other hand, if you DO NOT have good quality fuel, the ambient temperature is high, or there is a slight tendency for engine knock, then alcohol/water injection or a bigger intercooler is essential
This next Info is based on devils own WMI, but will be similar for the other kits like snow performance who also offer boost or MAF activated systems
WHAT KIT SHOULD I GET, STAGE 1 OR STAGE 2?
Our DevilsOwn Stage 1 "Base" injection kit incorporates a boost switch that activates the system at a specific PSI. It’s adjustable from 2-10 psi or 6-30psi, but you can run up to 250 PSI through the switch, so it’s very reliable. This system will turn on at a level you set and stay on until you drop below that level. It’s On/Off. It can’t dial in exact flow, but it can get you within a range.
DevilsOwn Stage 2 "Progressive" kits offer high functionality and performance, the ability to vary the flow based on inputs (maf, map, tps, ait, any 0-5v source). Most users run it off of separate GM style map sensor if there car does not already have a map sensor. With the Stage 2 Kit you set a starting boost and a full boost and the system will progressively adjust the flow between those two points.
Both styles work. We tell our customers that if budget is the primary concern, get the base injection kit. If you have a little more money to spend or want something with more user control, the progressive kit is worth it.
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Where to locate your alcohol-water injection nozzle.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi756.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx202%2Fsimonskerton%2FTurboEngine1.gif&hash=96e30d36a2953380eec52c8820593d6ae53056a1)
Well let's first start with where not to place the nozzle. When placing your water injection nozzle makes sure you do not place the nozzle upstream of a MAF or mass air flow sensor.
Fluid running through this sensor can damage these sensors on some particular engines. Next we recommend not installing these pre-intercooler unless you are injecting pre-blower on a supercharged engine that has an intake mounted intercooler. Injecting before front mount intercooler can cause the water-alcohol mixture to collect at the bottom because of the restriction of the tubes. Okay, now we know where not to place the nozzle, lets get on to where to place it.
Starting from where the air enters the intake tract and ending at the intake just prior to the combustion chamber.
1 Pre-Turbo water
We don't recommend this location at all if you do not have the proper equipment such as the proper nozzle, nozzle size and high pressure pump. Locating the nozzle here is the most controversial location. The majority of alcohol/water injection users do not use this location. One reason for someone to inject at this location is the water/methanol mixture chemically alters the turbo compressor map. The water/methanol injection will dynamically shifts the compressor map of the turbo so that it has the compressor map exhibits the characteristics of a larger turbo. This sounds great but, the main issue with pre-turbo nozzle placement is what mixture can damage the compressor blade if the mixture is not properly atomized when passing through the turbo.
In order to inject pre-turbo with out compressor damage you need a high quality low volume nozzle and high enough pressure to get the water as finely misted as possible, and the smaller nozzle which allows for smaller/finer water droplets. We recommend you mount the nozzle as close to the compresser as possible.
2 Pre-Intercooler
Pre-intercooler seems like a sensible nozzle location but, the thing to think about is if the air entering the IC is pre-cooled, the ability of the intercooler is because the temp difference is lesser. It is also possible for the fine water/alcohol mist to collect in the bottom of your intercooler core. We don't recommend this location either. The other problem is that there's a possibility that the hot air from the turbo might unnecessarily vaporize the water and take up some of the volume built up by the turbo that was supposed to be for the charge. Pre-IC does work for some track cars such as road racing that operate at a more constant higher RPM. For the daily driver, weekend racer, the pre-intercooler location should not be considered.
3 Post Intercooler
Most computer controlled engines have an intake air temperature (IAT) sensor. This sensor monitors the temperature of the air going into the motor. The reason for putting it before the IAT sensor is because it will see the cooler temps and the engine will advance timing, allowing for more power. Also placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders/air intake sensor as possible, it allows for the water/methanol mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge. This allows for great distribution to each cylinder. This post intercooler nozzle location should be the primary nozzle location to be considered for most users.
In theory, since the air charge will be mixed for a longer distance, and therefore time, allowing for the moisture to be absorbed by the air, creating the coolest possible air charge going into the cylinders. Water/methanol molecules from a nozzle located here have more time to be absorbed by the intake charge exiting the IC before making it into the combustion chamber.
4 Pre-Air Intake Temperature Sensor
In the cold side charge pipe is usually an easier or less intrusive nozzle location for most user's than the IC exit tank, but still the closer to IC the better. Locating the nozzle here has same as for reason given in above (location 3)
5 After Air Intake Sensor
After the Air Intake Sensor: You can usually mount it either before or after the ‘butterfly' and still be after the air intake temperature sensor. The main difference when mounting the injector before or after the butterfly is there is less vacuum before versus after the butterfly when idling or driving in vacuum. Translation, when in vacuum, there is more vacuum after the butterfly than before it. Here is why this is important: If your solenoid is placed very far from the injectors (more than a couple of feet), then the vacuum can actually suck just a little bit of the water/methanol. This small amount of moisture ingestion during vacuum is not a problem.
6 Intake manifold
This location can be the most complex area to install. Usually requiring that he intake be removed for access. Injecting here is going to yield the largest water/methanol droplets. And with the closer proximity to the combustion chambers is going to provide a larger amount of mixture into the cylinders. Doing this usually requires more fuel from the factory system be removed. This option is best for max cooling.
The water here is being injected in a manner much like port fuel injection and it is the bigger water molecules being injected here that have a more direct effect of in cylinder cooling and injection here has more of an effect of altering the flame front of the combustion charge in a way much like a higher octane fuel. To take full advantage of this nozzle location it is suggested that trimming away some of the factory dumped fuel be done. In other words, in order to take advantage of the better properties of water over fuel for cooling and injecting water at this location, you want to remove the dumped fuel and actually REPLACE this with water. This injection point with a pretty sophisticated WI control method allows for the most advantageous use of water injection. The drawback for nozzles located heres is kit/component complexity, install complexity, additional labor, possible machine shop costs, and possible additional parts costs.
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kits ive found that are available
Devils own stage 1(boost operated) £209.99 http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?cPath=21
devils own stage 2 (maf operated) £279.99 http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?cPath=21
snow perfomance stage 2 (maf operated)£454 http://www.jabbasport.com/store/inde...ef=2001220TFSI
AEM water meth kit £325+vat sold by backdraft motorsport (£300 for fitting )
fitting costs from http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=62
w/m install with tank in the boot £105
w/m install utilising stock washer bottle £85
not as expensive as thought
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Where can I get this? Cost and benefits please.. :happy2: :jumpmove:
found the thread and bumped it. its proven mod on suburus and evos and all the jap turbo cars. there are also quite alot of guys using them on the 1.8T cars.
the uk doesnt seem to have caught on with the TFSI WMI market yet. however the yanks are mad on it.
As far as im aware there are a few guys on SCN who are considering it. been a few threads on there recently
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Looking into this tomorrow :happy2:
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Where can I get this? Cost and benefits please.. :happy2: :jumpmove:
found the thread and bumped it. its proven mod on suburus and evos and all the jap turbo cars. there are also quite alot of guys using them on the 1.8T cars.
the uk doesnt seem to have caught on with the TFSI WMI market yet. however the yanks are mad on it.
As far as im aware there are a few guys on SCN who are considering it. been a few threads on there recently
Agree Sy this really does seem to be a good mod with really positive gains to be had.
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I am buying a devils own kit soon for my 2.0tfsi but may aswell hold on and see what comes of this GB... i have spoken to a few people about this and it will give reasonable gains to your car even if it has not been mapped to run WMI (GIAC etc)...
hopefully we can get some info posted up regarding a group buy asap
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Also wanting WMI :party:
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bsh were considering doing a group buy a while back through dutek on here. on another note, BSH last year where looking into suppling a full package which include an uprated IC/Throttle body pipe with pre-drilled bung for the injection jets. might be worth a pm to find out how tat is going??
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im keen on getting wmi, been contemplating the kit that jabba sport supply which works with the maf but it aint cheap after labour costs
would be interested in a group buy :happy2:
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thats jabbalads car on here
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Some more links from threads on this forum and SCN with more WMI links and info just to help out guys looking. :happy2:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15442.0.html
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=267749