MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: SteveP on October 08, 2009, 08:43:39 pm
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Anyone have any ideas or useful links on this?
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You talking exhaust gas temperatures?
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Yep :happy2:
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might be a question for the likes of Jim at JKM or similar
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Good idea Gaz :happy2:
Just hoping some of the super geeks might remember reading something about it :laugh:
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Y do u need to know what u done ?
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Just gathering information :wink:
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Seekrit Squirrel
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U had it tested ?
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Has something melted then steve?? Sports cat damage? sensor failure?
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8-900 deg C , 970 limit from that link
but its calculated in some way and depends on remap too , only true way is direct gauges ...
http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18569&highlight=egt+apr&page=3
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U had it tested ?
Nope only got the car back tonight after fixing some other bit's and bob's but will need to get it tested.
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8-900 deg C , 970 limit from that link
but its calculated in some way and depends on remap too , only true way is direct gauges ...
http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18569&highlight=egt+apr&page=3
Thanks John, that's the kind of super geek answer I was looking for :happy2:
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Steve, out of interest what sort's of AFR have you been running?
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http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57371&highlight=egt+graph&page=2
infamous thread , K03 maybe but useful...
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Let us know what's happened then lol u fooked the lambda or something
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Just been reading on Johns link ......
This is not merely speculation or arguable. It is proven fact. To satisfy yourself, please data log lamba, egt's and fuel pressure. This is especially concerning for track enthusiasts that find themselves hot lapping during driving events or participating competitively. The street enthusiast may be able to get away with higher egt's for longer periods of time as typically you are at wot in relatively short bursts where on a road course you are wot almost the entire time. All client situations must be considered and please know that with APR calibration you will enjoy safe operation in any circumstance.
So Track days for long periods at W.O.T have caused this damage?
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Steve, out of interest what sort's of AFR have you been running?
All my logs are on my other laptop at work and can't remember off the top of my head, but do remember that every was within the normal range when logging it after the ITG intake went on :smiley:
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so do u think track time heat has made something melt? what settings u running on revo? infact no matter what settings are u would hope and think re map companies would test every code and setting to death on a track and push the crap out of each code and keep an eye on egt with vag com :confused:
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^^^ As per the text's not sure on much at the moment once I have some proven details on what/when/why I will be sure to share it with you all :happy2:
Sorry I but don't want to speculate on this one :smiley:
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^^^ As per the text's not sure on much at the moment once I have some proven details on what/when/why I will be sure to share it with you all :happy2:
Sorry I but don't want to speculate on this one :smiley:
What spec is your car running?
This is disturbing as me and wayne do have frequented extended w.o.t periods, and do have our fair share of issues.
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^^^ As per the text's not sure on much at the moment once I have some proven details on what/when/why I will be sure to share it with you all :happy2:
Sorry I but don't want to speculate on this one :smiley:
What spec is your car running?
This is disturbing as me and wayne do have frequented extended w.o.t periods, and do have our fair share of issues.
I am running an Edition 30 with -
Revo Stage 2+ Code
Revo DSG Software
KMD HPFP Internals
ITG CAI
Milltek TBE
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Just remember that on the US forums they are moslty talking about K03 turbos and not K04 turbos.
On K04 turbo cars – the Fuel curve is no where near as rich as standard on the K03 cars.
With the K04 turbochargers happy to flow a lot more air than the K03 type, the turbo is most likely being stressed a lot less as so there was no need for the engineers to keep the EGT’s as low. K04 cars definitely do not run as rich as the K03 cars do when stock. I have many logs proving this having owned an A3 2.0 TFSI before the S3
Also remember that these cars (In both K03 and K04 versions) do not run an actual exhaust gas temperature probe (as the 1.8T Audi S3 did) – all EGT measurements are ‘calculated’ by the ECU from data tables within the ECU that were loaded during engine tuning on the dyno during development. I am led to believe that the Front lambda probe heater circuit plays a key role as well for feedback.
These EGT tables can become slightly ‘off’ when the car is remapped, therefore to truely know what your EGTs are you would need to insert an EGT probe into the exhaust.
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^^^very interesting :happy2:^^^
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Excuse my ignorance(once again), but what is WOT?
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Excuse my ignorance(once again), but what is WOT?
Wide Open Throttle :happy2:
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Just remember that on the US forums they are moslty talking about K03 turbos and not K04 turbos.
On K04 turbo cars – the Fuel curve is no where near as rich as standard on the K03 cars.
With the K04 turbochargers happy to flow a lot more air than the K03 type, the turbo is most likely being stressed a lot less as so there was no need for the engineers to keep the EGT’s as low. K04 cars definitely do not run as rich as the K03 cars do when stock. I have many logs proving this having owned an A3 2.0 TFSI before the S3
Also remember that these cars (In both K03 and K04 versions) do not run an actual exhaust gas temperature probe (as the 1.8T Audi S3 did) – all EGT measurements are ‘calculated’ by the ECU from data tables within the ECU that were loaded during engine tuning on the dyno during development. I am led to believe that the Front lambda probe heater circuit plays a key role as well for feedback.
These EGT tables can become slightly ‘off’ when the car is remapped, therefore to truely know what your EGTs are you would need to insert an EGT probe into the exhaust.
KRL,
I don't mean to be argumentative and maybe this only applies to our understanding of the ecu but I would like to interject the following:
To maintain MBT, the afr needs to be similar to that of a ko3 calibration. 10.5:1 with no exhaust changes other than the ko4 is going to be a pretty good rule of thumb for keeping egt's happy. However, the fuel is dosed or metered in as egt's reach their threshold and continued to dose until the egt's level off below their safe limit.
If you change the exhaust to a less restrictive one you can run afr around 11.2:1 with no fear of the egt limit as long as you properly meter the dosing of fuel toward high rpm to cool egt's.
However, this applies to 2.0T FSI with ko3's that change to a ko4. I would need to research the egt results of a ED30 or S3 to verify your conclusion that the ED30/S3 type engines run leaner afr's and lower egt's standard. However, the explanation for such is that the OEM mapping uses fuel dosing as egt's rise. The lower compression and other engine differences may result in that dosing and richening of the afr being applied to a lesser degree to control egt's on those engines. Its also possible that you haven't worked the turbo hard enough during those logging sessions for the dosing of fuel to occur.
EGT's are like a switch in the ecu that moves to a different fueling surface that is fatter in afr to lower egt's. Once that switch is turned off, you will be on a different fueling surface that is typically leaner. So you need to know which fueling surface you are logging and which one is active to determine what the afr of the vehicle is and should be in that circumstance.
A tuner may disable the "switch" and dictate the ecu must run their determined afr at all times. APR calibrates both surfaces and appreciates the "switch" because its quite useful and is a very nice feature allowing for max power until egt's rise and then allowing for max power with high egt's while they are cooled back down.
The egt model in the ecu is correct until hardware behind the head is changed or cams or other internals like lower comp. We probe the egt's preturbine in all of our testing for calibrations that apply to these types of hardware changes. If you run the oem exhaust on a 200hp engine with a ko4 upgrade, the model is still pretty damn accurate. If you change the exhaust, the model becomes incorrect but you'd be surprised at how slight.
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KRL,
I don't mean to be argumentative and maybe this only applies to our understanding of the ecu but I would like to interject the following:
To maintain MBT, the afr needs to be similar to that of a ko3 calibration. 10.5:1 with no exhaust changes other than the ko4 is going to be a pretty good rule of thumb for keeping egt's happy. However, the fuel is dosed or metered in as egt's reach their threshold and continued to dose until the egt's level off below their safe limit.
If you change the exhaust to a less restrictive one you can run afr around 11.2:1 with no fear of the egt limit as long as you properly meter the dosing of fuel toward high rpm to cool egt's.
However, this applies to 2.0T FSI with ko3's that change to a ko4. I would need to research the egt results of a ED30 or S3 to verify your conclusion that the ED30/S3 type engines run leaner afr's and lower egt's standard. However, the explanation for such is that the OEM mapping uses fuel dosing as egt's rise. The lower compression and other engine differences may result in that dosing and richening of the afr being applied to a lesser degree to control egt's on those engines. Its also possible that you haven't worked the turbo hard enough during those logging sessions for the dosing of fuel to occur.
EGT's are like a switch in the ecu that moves to a different fueling surface that is fatter in afr to lower egt's. Once that switch is turned off, you will be on a different fueling surface that is typically leaner. So you need to know which fueling surface you are logging and which one is active to determine what the afr of the vehicle is and should be in that circumstance.
A tuner may disable the "switch" and dictate the ecu must run their determined afr at all times. APR calibrates both surfaces and appreciates the "switch" because its quite useful and is a very nice feature allowing for max power until egt's rise and then allowing for max power with high egt's while they are cooled back down.
The egt model in the ecu is correct until hardware behind the head is changed or cams or other internals like lower comp. We probe the egt's preturbine in all of our testing for calibrations that apply to these types of hardware changes. If you run the oem exhaust on a 200hp engine with a ko4 upgrade, the model is still pretty damn accurate. If you change the exhaust, the model becomes incorrect but you'd be surprised at how slight.
Thanks for the informative reply Keith. It would be interesting if you did research the results for AFR and EGTs on ED30/S3s as I am sure you will see the same results as I did.
Here is a graph of my AFR on my S3 as standard:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fuu264%2Flivall%2Fs3_standard_afr.jpg&hash=a36181193470868774184d009a90cca95705cc27)
Here is a graph of my AFR on my A3 as standard:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fuu264%2Flivall%2Fa3_standard_afr.jpg&hash=5fb644a472f1f4264a2b828331d4979eaebbf5b8)
As you can see the the K03 is running richer through most of the rev range than the K04.
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Just a bit of an update, turns out the original diagnosis on mine that the cat had “sh*t it's self†(that was the technical term), was incorrect and my EGT’s are fine. :smiley:
The issue was the flexi on the downpipe, which had cracked/split in a couple of places due to the mounting bracket being reinstalled upside down, causing the downpipe to be offset from it's normal position :fighting: :fighting:
But all credit to Milltek they still sorted it under warranty and then emissions tested the car to check everything was OK :notworthy: :notworthy:
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Nice to hear all is ok Steve. :happy2:
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Great to hear that all is OK Steve, sigh of relief breathed by all. :happy2:
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Glad its ok Steve, See you friday.
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Good news steve, Who fitted your upside down Bracket?