MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: bower on April 26, 2014, 11:21:49 am
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hi can anyone recommend i product i can use my self to try and clean the inlet valves without having to dismantle the car?
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You can try Wynns Petrol EGR cleaner which is one of the few products that claims to clean the inlet valves. I tried it on mine and it did do something as a lot of muck came out of the exhaust , but not sure how much it takes off the valves.
It's pretty cheap on EBay so worth a go. Nothing will beat taking the inlet mani off and cleaning it by hand tho tbh
When my mate sprayed it into the PCV hole in the inlet manifold the car revs it's self :grin:
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hi cheers for replying
it seems a bit of a major job to dismantle though and i dont think im capable with knackering somat lol
i will give that stuff go :happy2: u dont happen to have a pic of the place to spray it in?
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Pic here. It's the bottom of the pipe where I sprayed it into the manifold: http://s205.photobucket.com/user/lafors/media/newPCV.jpg.html
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Even found you the stuff on eBay :drinking:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WYNNS-PETROL-EGR-CLEANER-150ml-SPRAY-CLEANS-AIR-INTAKE-FLOW-SENSOR-INLET-VALVE-/221244690959?pt=UK_Vehicle_Oils_Lubricants_Fluids&hash=item338336120f
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Even found you the stuff on eBay :drinking:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WYNNS-PETROL-EGR-CLEANER-150ml-SPRAY-CLEANS-AIR-INTAKE-FLOW-SENSOR-INLET-VALVE-/221244690959?pt=UK_Vehicle_Oils_Lubricants_Fluids&hash=item338336120f
your a star pal thanks very much :drinking:
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Where does this get sprayed in, what would be the procedure to do this?
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This video may be worth a watch
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=is1x9scQkNQ
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Where does this get sprayed in, what would be the procedure to do this?
Where it gets sprayed in is answered above :happy2:
Instructions are on the can, basically spray in short bursts until the can is empty, leave engine to idle for 1 min after. Job done
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Sorry to say but I read the thread saying about cleaning whilst in situ and the conclusion was no change.
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Think I'll have to do mine with the white spirit again, it's giving an occasional putttt on idle.
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Think I'll have to do mine with the white spirit again, it's giving an occasional putttt on idle.
Mine does this, it stopped briefly after I did the treatment so I'm pretty sure it's the valves. Not as bad as it was. My old K03 GTI did exactly the same
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I've been reading some of the disadvantages of TFSI engines and the problem of carbon build up. Looks like we have to decoke our engines, which was a feature of pre 1980s cars ...
The carbon build up on the inlet tract and valves seems to cause poor running of the engine, loss of power & torque and poor fuel consumption.
The use of addictives, liquid cleaners such as BG44, Seafoam, injector cleaners, pure "fuel" treatments don't appear to work for our and similar engines. Looks like physical removal by scraping or media blasting is the only way.
What have been your experiences ? What have you guys done about it ?
Found this article which is interesting reading.
Turbo Fuel Stratified Injection (TFSI) & Direct Port Injection Carbon Build-up Problem
by Andy Archer Published on Thursday, July 17th, 2014
Inlet Valve Carbon Deposition
The problem with carbon build-up on the back face and stem area of intake valves in direct fuel injection petrol engines has been ongoing for some time now. It became prominent in 2007/2008 as Audi, VW, BMW Mini and other direct injection equipped vehicles started to cause engine warning codes and the Malfunction Indicator Lights (MIL) to become illuminated.
The presence of excessive carbon build-up has generally been attributed to the direct port injection design. This design enables a more complete and efficient combustion process as fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber rather than behind the inlet valve as with conventional port injection designs. However, any cleaning capability of the fuel or more importantly, fuel additives is non-existent in the inlet tract as the liquid fuel never comes into contact with the back of the inlet valves. The cleaning effect on the front of the valves (combustion chamber side), combustion chamber surfaces and exhaust valves is easily achieved as a consequence of the clean burning characteristics of high quality fuel and/or additives but the downstream surfaces of the inlet valves are left to accumulate deposits. The volume of these deposits eventually alters the air flow dynamics within the inlet tract inhibiting airflow and thus volumetric efficiency considerably.
This result of this is more readily noticed on normally aspirated engines as they are less able to overcome air flow restriction whereas forced induction engines can overcome minor restrictions as air is “forced” into the combustion chamber under pressure.
The images below illustrate the direct fuel injection and port fuel injection design. You will notice on the port injection design that fuel is injected behind the inlet valve and the fuel and air mixture is then drawn into the combustion chamber as the valve opens. This is not as efficient as a direct injection design but it helps prevent deposit build-up on the intake valves.
Port Fuel Injection vs Direct Fuel Injection
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oilem.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F07%2FPort-vs-Direct-Injection-300x107.gif&hash=93a6f71d5662630310024b82df7629545390e262)
Port Fuel Injection vs Direct Fuel Injection
So what has changed?
A major breakthrough has occurred recently on the build-up issue and the exact cause has been isolated. The port injection design is actually not the cause but merely the reason why the issue cannot be controlled and managed through normal fuel derived cleaning processes.
It is now understood why even the most advanced post combustion cleaning fuel additives or solvent based cleaning through the fuel /air intake tract have little effect. Furthermore, it is also understood why rerouting crankcase breather by-product into segregated catch cans or using water/methanol injection are limited in their ability to reduce carbonaceous build-up in the inlet port and inlet valve surfaces.
Post combustion cleaning additives, solvent based intake cleaning and water/methanol injection are not effective because the carbon species responsible for the build-up are predominantly derived from lube oil; these produce active but very dense layers of carbons. In some cases even grit blasting techniques have failed to remove the build-up because of the integrity, toughness and adherence of deposits. In contrast to these lube oil derived deposits those resulting from decomposition of fuel tend to produce a satin black build-up that can be scraped off easily with a finger nail. This type of deposit can be removed with fuel borne additive technology. However, the deposits formed from the decomposition of lubricating oils during engine operation have been found far more difficult to remove. This deposition and growth of carbonaceous debris has been demonstrated on a test engine with inspection ports positioned in the inlet tract.
In the pictures below you will notice the solidity of the lube based build-up on the inlet valve of an Audi RS4 (4.2 V8 TFSI) versus the fuel-only carbon build-up as seen on an EGR valve on a different vehicle. The carbon on the latter is easily removed either manually or via fuel additive technology that is still active post combustion.
Audi RS4 Inlet Valve Carbon Buildup
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oilem.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F07%2FAudi-RS4-Inlet-Valve-Carbon-Buildup-300x225.jpg&hash=b6070cb452f728e51ec8ebf1ebfaf8501e4ab579)
Audi RS4 Inlet Valve Carbon Buildup
EGR Valve Part Cleaned
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oilem.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F07%2FA8-EGR-Before-Part-Cleaned-300x199.jpg&hash=4597cfc60b864c10c7e4e886528f53f3ec0e6e9e)
EGR Valve Part Cleaned
Oil on valve stems – It should be noted that the presence of lubricating oil in this location is normal as there should be a controlled amount of oil to keep valve stems lubricated. One reason why NA engines tend to suffer more from inlet valve deposits is simply that under vacuum the oil from the valve stems is more difficult to “control” as it is sucked through by the pressure differential existing between inlet manifold and atmosphere. In comparison forced induction engines (turbo or supercharged) generally operate with the intake manifold under positive pressure so less oil is pulled through the seals.
So if the small amount of oil bypassing the valve stem seals is normal, and indeed required, then why the excessive build-up on the valves? One hypothesis is that;
The oil is being broken down by the catalytic (reacting) action of the materials used to manufacture or coat the valve stems. In particular, nickel and chrome alloys. This pyrolytic decomposition is widely recognised in the industrial power generation sector where hydrocarbons are in contact with superalloys used in the construction of combustors, nozzle guide vanes and exhaust components.
In layman’s terms the materials used to manufacture and harden the valves is reacting with the lubricating oil creating an aggressive bond between the lube and the valves!
Although this hypothesis seeks to explain the mechanism behind the formation of these carbonaceous deposits there are still many challenges ahead. As carbon is the constituent part of all lubricating oils and fuels and each of these is fundamentally required by engines in their present form a method of reducing or eliminating carbon build up must be sought.
Once oil has initially decomposed and formed a carbon deposit bonded with the valves it remains chemically active and further carbons whether from engine oil or recirculating fuel emissions adhere to the existing mass with ease.
Some manufactures have incorporated a more complicated fuel system with a combined port/direct port engine design to retain the benefits of direct port injection whilst injecting some fuel behind the valves to help keep them clean. However, for existing direct port engine designs there are few viable options: change valve material and/or use a coating that doesn’t catalyse with carbons or enable the adherence of carbon or, introduce an additive pack that can inhibit carbon formation.
Valves have to work very hard and current valve materials are chosen for their toughness and durability. Any replacement material and/or coating would have to at least share or improve upon these properties. There are proposals in the area of material and surface coating choice but we are not at liberty to share them at this stage.
Other theories consider that at certain engine operating conditions there is a small amount of backwash as the early injection of fuel occurs whilst the inlet valve is still open; the contribution of EGR also needs to be considered. For compression ignition engines – diesels – the heavy contamination of inlet tracts with a dense but greasy carbon based deposit is well known. There are many EGR deletion methods focussed on the prevention or re-occurrence of this deposit build up which as in the case of their petrol fuelled counterparts can seriously impede the flow of inlet air to the combustion chamber.
Operating temperatures of engines have tended to increase with commensurate increases in combustion chamber parts, heat soaking on shutdown and extensive idling periods have been shown to affect the degree of build-up on upper cylinder parts and valve gear.
Regardless, the issue of cleaning existing deposits does not go away. The use of more advanced polar solvents will be investigated but this process is still constrained by the hardness of the carbon build-up as well as the risk of unmanageable chunks of carbon being dislodged and damaging valves or cylinder bores during engine operation. Managing the gradual fluidising of deposits enabling them to be safely consumed during combustion is a significant challenge.
There is some data to suggest that the use of certain oil additives or group IV and above base stock oils (pure PAO, esters etc.) reduce the speed of build-up. However, this is not fully substantiated as back to back tests were not conducted on the exact same vehicle. The tests show visual build-up compared to other similar vehicles of similar mileage that are not using additives or group IV and above engine oils. Furthermore, some of the PAO derived oils are more readily broken down by catalytic action and tend to have better high temperature resistance to degradation, thus presenting a fluid film onto the valve stems where decomposition may occur. One area of interest is the use of mineral oils containing carbon fluidising additives as found in many two stroke engine oils; however these compositions generally, do not meet the lubrication specifications required by modern engines.
Archoil® has been using proprietary esters and fluidising technology for some time and we have initiated further tests relating to this technology and direct port engines. We will keep you posted as soon as we have more information.
Andy Archer
Source : http://www.oilem.com/turbo-fuel-stratified-injection-tfsi-direct-port-injection-carbon-build-up-problem/
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Do excuse my ignorence but whats the signs of this carbon build up and any years of car or mileage etc that will effect it more?
Thanks
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All direct injection engines. Less than smooth idle. Mis-firing on 1 or more cylinders (may be spark plug, coil pack or injectors though). Poor fuel economy. Saps power, torque and petrol.
No permanent solution afaik, apart from changing to port injection which I believe a few have done in USA with APR inlet manifold, they also have WMI and big turbo installations. Catch cans don't seem to stop it happening, according to Alex Kerr of AKS tuning in bedford. He reported the same deposits after cleaning and fitting an oil catch tank. Liquid based cleaners are not full effective. 2-3 hours labour to clean. Use a boroscope to verify the state of inlet tract and valves.
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Cars driven harder are generally not as badly coated due to the extra heat buildup.
I find my engine idles much smoother after a long hard run, and gets worse after repeated short trips.
I used the BG44k to clean injectors (I know it won't touch the valves)
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Better pics of the carbon deposits.
Full article : http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5493383-Intake-Valve-cleaning-at-77K-%28Insight-amp-Pics%29
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6220%2F6344614783_c52e9c1c93_b.jpg&hash=e0c0a31a71477b208f7725609501c23dc54a23cc)
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This DIY is mine: FWg_A
I want to make another version that shows how I do this currently. Everything is done in the same manner...only my sprayer mod is much easier to utilize without fighting the throttle revs.
If any of you are experiencing frequent valve build-up...you may have a faulty valve cover that may have cracks in either the EVAP or EGR ducts on the underside of the v-cover. A catch-can would aid if this is the case but the v-cover will still need replacing at some point.
Below are bore pics of my most recent blow-by using equal parts solution of white spirits, pump fuel(petrol), and either NAPHTHA or xylol(xylene).
Before:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb434%2Frohecht%2Fdumb%2520forum%2520stuff%2F18d0afe4-5ced-493e-99b1-1cf7630b11b4.jpg&hash=e93fd724be170a1c7d00b6c292fb4c9c833fa9e7) (http://s1205.photobucket.com/user/rohecht/media/dumb%20forum%20stuff/18d0afe4-5ced-493e-99b1-1cf7630b11b4.jpg.html)
After:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb434%2Frohecht%2Fdumb%2520forum%2520stuff%2F76d465d0-b48f-4710-959f-5e5869e7e0d2.jpg&hash=19145449d7e3fba5d45a3ecc3b95db384e49fa3c) (http://s1205.photobucket.com/user/rohecht/media/dumb%20forum%20stuff/76d465d0-b48f-4710-959f-5e5869e7e0d2.jpg.html)
This may also be helpful: [ Invalid YouTube link ]
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Hi Roh,
thanks for your input. So you have removed the worst of the deposits using this method ? Or are you using your cleaning mixture to keep it clean ? or both ? I'm a little wary about doing it this way on a high miles engine (like mine, 110k miles) as the carbon buildup is likely to be significant. I'll probably get mine cleaned manually and then use your method to keep it clean(er). How often do you do it ? Has it affected your cat ? Or do you fix that by an Italian tune-up ? :driver:
Your boroscope looks like mine, cheap China one ? Did you go through the spark plug hole to get those pictures?
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Pic here. It's the bottom of the pipe where I sprayed it into the manifold: http://s205.photobucket.com/user/lafors/media/newPCV.jpg.html
So just to clarify pull the lower end of black plastic pcv hose off and spray into there with engine running yes? :happy2:
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Yes.
You need a mate to hold the revs at 2000rpm while you spray it though. Engine will die if you pull off PCV without revving it
Tbh it won't do much for hard baked carbon. Made me feel better for doing it though :signLOL:
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Don't know if it's been mentioned already but;
Obviously we don't 'thrash' our cars from cold but rather than let it idle to warm up its better to drive away straight away but gently & just stay off boost until upto temp.
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↑ yes...and do that! :happy2:
Hi Roh,
thanks for your input. So you have removed the worst of the deposits using this method ? Or are you using your cleaning mixture to keep it clean ? or both ? I'm a little wary about doing it this way on a high miles engine (like mine, 110k miles) as the carbon buildup is likely to be significant. I'll probably get mine cleaned manually and then use your method to keep it clean(er). How often do you do it ? Has it affected your cat ? Or do you fix that by an Italian tune-up ? :driver:
Your boroscope looks like mine, cheap China one ? Did you go through the spark plug hole to get those pictures?
I have never done a manual clean out on it. I do my blow-by method with my solution every 10k miles in order to keep it free flowing...and I started doing this at about 60k miles and have 115k miles now. I had a cat up to 100k miles, but now it is catless. I didn't have any problems with the cat...I only removed it because I wanted to run less expensive 100 octane low-lead fuel($5usd/gal) versus the 101 octane unleaded($16usd/gal) we have available. Yes...my bore-scope is a cheap Chinese Supereyes type...and I went through the IAT location as I do for the blow-by process. :drinking:
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I only removed it because I wanted to run less expensive 100 octane low-lead fuel($5usd/gal) versus the 101 octane unleaded($16usd/gal) we have available. Yes...my bore-scope is a cheap Chinese Supereyes type...and I went through the IAT location as I do for the blow-by process. :drinking:
I see, 'scope through IAT, more direct than going via the spark plug, good idea.
100 octane ! the tfsi will love that. Leaded fuel is almost unobtanium here. The highest rated stuff here is BP Ultimate 102, available in very few locations, but it is £2.42 a litre, almost 14USD a US gallon. (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/bp-launches-uks-highest-octane-fuel) and is the equivalent of 97 octane (US).
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Minis seem to be similarly afflicted :
http://www.minitorque.com/forum/f15/r56-mini-cooper-s-carbon-build-up-post-your-issues-here-32763/
Some people on the mini forum are using walnut blasting to clean the inlet tract. Seems to cost £200 for 4 cylinder and £300 for 6 cylinder cars.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fhh241%2Fshams1924%2Febayafter.jpg&hash=5a376be1ba1e98f6bedea44d4f3f1681e9b18012)
Will it really be that clean afterwards ?
Any one tried this type of service ?
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@vRSAlex (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1981) was talking about getting a walnut blaster
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Guys over on ASN talking about the same problems (on the TFSI engine).
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/preventing-carbon-build-up-2-0-tfsi.217234/
I'd love to try this together with a before and after RR run and emissions test.
Snake oil or not ??
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Recognised as an issue by BMW, they've issued all the dealers with a Strahlmittelgeraet - BMW part number 81292208034.
Looks like this :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fc1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com%2F549449_x800.jpg&hash=fa9b89c72cb0d9a1ce9b99d6c6f08dff7550f24e)
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E90-335Xi-N54_3.0l/Search/Tools/ES2101847/
Costs about €900.
I haven't found any one local to me that specialises in this service yet.
AKS - you getting a Strahlmittelgeraet soon ?
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Media blasting does produce very clean results, but the problem with all of the elaborate or expensive methods is that you will have to repeat. That is why I just do the blow-by religiously.
Yes, all direct injection motors are prone to intake valve build-up. Until now...the MK7 GTI(and perhaps other makes). They are putting 8 injectors in them...leaving 4 at the cylinders, but adding 4 in the intake mani. The 4 intake mani injectors will operate during idle and at low revs in order to increase mpg(VW says) and for intake valve cleaning(according to me). The 4 DI cylinder injectors will operate when load reaches some specified point for performance situations.