Morego suspension tweaks

[Janner_Sy]

so your trying for around 2 degrees negative then. are you running poly bushes as well or are you runnin std bushes. looked into that, the bushes are cheap but the amount of time to fit them made labour bloody nuts

[jonnyc]

so your trying for around 2 degrees negative then. are you running poly bushes as well or are you runnin std bushes. looked into that, the bushes are cheap but the amount of time to fit them made labour bloody nuts

2.0 is about as much as I want to run on this size of tyre to be honest.. Just running the WALK at the min but I do have a full poly bush kit sat in the garage, going to do them all when I fit the ally hubs / bottom arms rear etc etc..

[laurent.d]

The best way would certainly be to get the adjustable bottom arms from the TT.. You save weight plus get the 0.5 degrees (if you want it) then do another 0.5 on the top mount but rotate them for increased caster also.. This way you will keep the roll centre as close to standard as possible, and save weight at the same time..

Thats what im doing anyways..

It is what I asked to VWR:
If TT lower arms can't give more than -1.5° of négative camber then we will use KW adjustable top mount, if they fit my Bilstein.
I'll also have VWR poly bushes all around.

[Ottis]

Morego wishbones photo's



orginal wishbones and morego Powergrip wishbones,the thickness of weiding is for additional strenght




fitted to ED30



i have also tighten chassis and handling by
Eibach sport springs and Boge Turbo gas shocks shocks,Morego Powergrip wishbones,
Front 22mm Adjustable Sway bar + Rear 24mm Adjustable Sway bar ,
Bump steer correction kit,Bush kit - control arm Front,

If there is a better way to tighten chassis and handling It completely transform the car handling, eradicate understeer,for mainly road use and the odd track day,let me know

[tony_danza]

Did you weigh the wishbones? As they look like the steel ones you find on a normal Golf, rather than the lighter cast ones off a GTI.

The chassis on a MK5 is generally considered to be stiff enough, that's why strut braces and other mods like that aren't common. It is something like 85% stiffer than the Mk4.

I'd just suggest setting up your ARBs and geometry to dial in more oversteer, play with what you already have as it sounds fine.

[laurent.d]

Steel wishbones are last one fitted on GTI MkV and A3.

@Tony Danza

I didn't weight them but I found out on Forums that:

Stock are about 4.1 Kg each side.

S3/TT are about 2.3 Kg each side.

Morego definitly don't look good, but it works.
2 years ago, if I would have known that TT arms could fit and gives more camber, I would have bought them.

I’m also considering S3 alloy hubs (or swivel bearing? not sur about the name) as they are lighter.
TT hubs are alloy too but seem to widen the track and I can’t go any wider.

Jonnyc, do you know anything about yhat?

@OTTIS

Your 22mm front sway bar seem too small for me.
Turn in should be very agressive but you could overload the outer front wheel and then get understeer.
And in fast curves or direction change, your car should feel very unstable.

I have 28mm front sway bar set on soft and 24 mm rear sway bar set on hard.
My car is pretty neutral and adjustable, oversteer when you enter curves on the brakes  or lift up the gaz, slighty understeer under hard accélération.

For more oversteer 26mm front sway bar should be fine.
But a lot of oversteer is fun but not efficient.

[Janner_Sy]

thats a strange setup ARB wise having such a big bar at the front. on a FWD car a stiff front ARB will increase understeer, stiffen the ARB and you'll reduce understeer. Its getting the balance right between them.

I have eibachs. not to sure on the sizes of the bars, but between weekends at the nurburgring i trialled a few different settings front and back, trying both on soft, front stiff rear soft, both stiff, and ront soft, rear stiff.

having the front softest and rear on its stiffest turned out to give the best turn in, although i have considered getting a stiffer rear bar, to decrease understeer more and put a bit more balance towarss oversteer.

reference alloy hubs, i believe he is getting the TT hubs.  what would be the problem with a wieder track though?  the only problem i could envisage would be the driveshafts not being long enough.

can someone wih etka have a look to see if there are different part numbers for the TT driveshafts

[tony_danza]

Steel wishbones are last one fitted on GTI MkV and A3.

@Tony Danza

I didn't weight them but I found out on Furoms that:

Stock are about 4.1 Kg each side.

S3/TT are about 2.3 Kg each side.

Morego definitly don't look good, but it works.
2 years ago, if I would have known that TT arms could fit and gives more camber, I would have bought them.

I’m also considering S3 alloy hubs (or swivel bearing? not sur about the name) as they are lighter.
TT hubs are alloy too but seem to widen the track and I can’t go any wider.

Jonnyc, do you know anything about yhat?

@OTTIS

Your 22mm front sway bar seem too small for me.
Turn in should be very agressive but you could overload the outer front wheel and then get understeer.
And in fast curves or direction change, your car should feel very unstable.

I have 28mm front sway bar set on soft and 24 mm rear sway bar set on hard.
My car is pretty neutral and adjustable, oversteer when you enter curves on the brakes  or lift up the gaz, slighty understeer under hard accélération.

For more oversteer 26mm front sway bar should be fine.
But a lot of oversteer is fun but not efficient.

Oh yes, I'm not trying to tell you there's anything wrong with the Morego ones, I just hadn't realised they'd chopped a steel wishbone. From what I know of them, certainly in terms of track use they perform brilliantly. Why change them if they've been so good for 2 years.

My wishbone on my GTI looks like the dirty cast one on the right in the picture, did they change them on the GTI at some point? I know a MK6 wishbone is a steel one like the Morego one. Money saving no doubt.

Large ARBs are especially a bad idea on the front of FWD cars as they unload the inside wheel reducing traction in all circumstances. The bumpier the road the worse this problem becomes. Also, a larger bar increases weight transfer across an axle, so it will turn into an understeering  pig if the rear axle is not balanced to match.

If you change the properties of a rear anti roll bar, then not only do you change its stiffness but you change its shear centre. So you get more weight transfer and less toe and camber gain. This might explain why subjectively changing the rear anti roll bar seems to make more of a difference than changing the front.

[laurent.d]

It also sounded strange for me first, but I found out that sway bars sizes are not as simple as:
Small front/big rear = oversteer
Big front/small rear = understeer

It all depend of weight, weight distribution, and if the car is FWD, RWD, AWD.

For exemple for FWD A3 H&R provide (small kit) 26F/22R or (big kit) 28F/24R
For Quattro A3 it is 24F/26R

You'll find a long but interesting review there: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137

[laurent.d]

@Tony_Danza

No offence about the Morego wishbones look
I just want to change them because TT arms are better looking and lighter than Morego ones and because I'm also mods addicted.

But about camber TT arms won't be any better than Morego's

[laurent.d]

reference alloy hubs, i believe he is getting the TT hubs.  what would be the problem with a wieder track though?  the only problem i could envisage would be the driveshafts not being long enough.

can someone wih etka have a look to see if there are different part numbers for the TT driveshafts

I had a look at ETKA and you can find the same driveshafts référence for TT and A3 except that its 1K0 407 452/451 for A3 and 8J0 driveshafts for TT.

Widened the track can be a problème for me as my front wheels nearly are out of the arch.

[tony_danza]

It also sounded strange for me first, but I found out that sway bars sizes are not as simple as:
Small front/big rear = oversteer
Big front/small rear = understeer

Yes, but we have adjustable bars, that example is for non adjustable and is theory rather than science, it won't apply to every car of course.

It all depend of weight, weight distribution, and if the car is FWD, RWD, AWD.

For exemple for FWD A3 H&R provide (small kit) 26F/22R or (big kit) 28F/24R
For Quattro A3 it is 24F/26R

You'll find a long but interesting review there: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137

Yes, I completely agree, my example was for an FWD car only. It is a different set of rules for 4WD/RWD. I will point out though that a quattro A3 is a predominently FWD car, hence the set up. Look at a proper 4WD like say A Subaru Impreza STI, H&R list that as a 22mm front and 25MM rear.

Also, you can't get too hung up on xxmm of the bars. H&R sell uprated versions of the OEM bars, so say a set with a 20% increase and a set with a 40% increase in stiffness (for arguments sake). If you set them both at medium, you get exactly the same balance as OEM, but stiffer... if you set the rear hard and the front soft, then you get the "theory" effect - small front/big rear = oversteer.

[laurent.d]

Here are the différence beetwin A3 and TT:
See file : Service_Training_Audi_TT.pdf

@ Tony_Danza

So, I think we do agree.

Basicly, sway bars are designed to provide à balanced setup depending on car architecture (weight, weight distribution, and if the car is FWD, RWD, AWD)
Then you get bigger sway bar at the front or at the rear, or what ever.

Then, design or setup sway bar stiffer at the front or at the rear change the understeer/oversteer balance of the car.

But you can have 28mm FSB and 24 RSB and get oversteering biased car.
FWD A3/Golf/Leon need bigger sway bar at the front because 2/3 of the weight is at the front, that doesn't mean it will understeer.

But I do think that smaller sway bar at the front on a Golf is too small.

Stock setup is F23mm/R21mm => Front is 44% stiffer than rear and with 2° of négative camber at the front, the car is oversteering biased even under accélération.

My set up is F28 soft/R 24 hard=> Front is 68% stiffer than rear and with 2° of négative camber at the front, the car is neutral.

OTTIS setup is F22/R24=> the front is 29% softer than the rear.
I'm sure his car is fun and oversteering at low speed or around round-about but at high speed, I think there would be to much roll at the front and, outer front wheel over loaded and then understeer.
It what they say in the review I gave you the link.

[Janner_Sy]

My set up is F28 soft/R 24 hard=> Front is 68% stiffer than rear and with 2° of négative camber at the front, the car is neutral.

IMO opinion you are cancelling out the understeer created from having such a stiff front ARB by increasing the amount of negative camber you are running. 1 degree additional negative will make a huge improvement in turn in. which is why your car feels neutral. 

where as if you had an softer bar on the front and the 2 degrees of negative camber your turn in would be immense in comparison.

 

[laurent.d]

vRSy,
yes on one hand you are right, and I agree with you, but have a look at this review and you will understand what I try to explain.

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137