Tuning, Data Logging & BTF Settings/Advice

[vRS Carl]

Before i start Mods i know this is probably in the wrong place but couldn't decide exactly which section to put it. Feel free to move to the correct section. Also if you think this is valuable (and i hope it is) i would be grateful if you could make this a Sticky to give people some help/assistance.

Ok before i start a little Disclaimer:

**** I am in now way an expert on any of this. None of this advice should be taken as gospel. It is all based on my own experience (which will be detailed below) and numerous conversations with reputable tuners. Use this as help to make your OWN informed decisions.****

Recently a i have seen a lot of threads which are people asking what sort of settings can they run with various mods etc. The bottom line here is that NOBODY can say to you "yes you can run settings XYZ". Every single car will react differently. It's not just a case of mods and settings and away you go. It is also a lot to do with, Mileage on the car, The way it was run in, Fuel being used, Ambient temps, the mods being used, who made the mods etc etc.

Tuners like REVO, APR, GIAC, Shark Performance etc spend thousands of pounds developing and testing software. They will use this to form a basis of "generic" settings to be applied at each stage. This is based on you having the Minimum modifications for that stage. If you then start adding other mods (intercooler, Turbo discharge pipes etc) then you can alter the settings to take into account these modifications.

I am going to talk now in terms of Stage 2+ (K03) but the method can be applied across all stages both K03 & K04.

When i first had Stage 2+ code put on my car it left the Tuners on B8 T7 F7. On this the car developed 263bhp and 286lb/ft (figures here are not important as that is a seperate issue) Now i personally (having seen other stage 2+ cars develop 280bhp & 330lb/ft) felt this was on the low side. This started off the whole process of me finding out exactly how this software worked, replacing almost everything on the car bar the Engine block & Turbo & doing hundreds of logs (317 at the last count) Eventually at the end of this process my car was setup on B9 T7 F6. This, according to the tuner, was perfectly fine and everything was safe. I then booked a RR session at the same tuner where i had the Stage 2+ code applied. So it was the same dyno/dyno operator. On settings 976 i got 265bhp & 290lb/ft. Nothing to write home about and certainly never noticeable.

Now i wasn't happy with this so i started to do more logging of my own. When on 976 i would get timing pull of -3.8 across all cylinders. This is fine and safe however i thought to myself i had less timing pull on 877 so why stress the car to 976 for a gain of 2bhp & 4lb/ft. So i carried on doing more and more logs until i got the car to the point where it was on the highest settings possible with no timing pull at all. This led me to be on settings 857. After this i then attended a RR day, again at the same tuner so same Dyno/Dyno Operator and got 262bhp and 283lb/ft. So i lost 3bhp & 7lb/ft BUT the curve was smooth the power progressive and no perceivable difference in performance. So i was happy with this and i have left the car on those settings ever since. I do a few check logs every month and so far have had no problems at all. Everything runs as it should do.

So that's the background to give you an idea i do have a vague clue as to what im on about 

Now the advice (this is all purely my own opinion)

When you go to have your car tuned (at whatever stage) this is the process a tuner should do

You turn up and hand over the car.
They take the car for a drive to check no obvious faults
After this drive they do a diagnostic scan to make sure that nothing is wrong
They take a note of ALL performance mods (I'm talking intake, HPFP, Discharge pipe, Intercooler etc)
Software is loaded with manufacturers recommended start settings and then tested on dyno.
Car is then taken on the road and logged in real world conditions
Software is tweaked (as far as possible) so that it is running safe taking into account YOUR mods
Final drive & diagnostic scan
You pay and take the car away

If then for example you had stage 2+ loaded with the bare minimum (TBE, HPFP, Intake) and you then buy a Turbo Discharge Pipe & Uprated Intercooler then by all means you can alter the settings to take into account these mods. BUT this has to be logged using VCDS. This is to ensure any changes you make are safe. As an example my car was Safe on settings 976. I leaned out the fuel so the settings were 977 and the timing pull went up to -6.4 on 3 cylinders & 7.2 on the 4th. This is dangerous so you can see how much damage you could do just by altering one setting 1 notch. The car drove fine and didn't feel any different but it wouldn't have been long before i did some serious damage.

When you do any logs you should do at least 4 or 5 runs on each setting. This allows the effects of heat soak to be seen so that you can see what happens to the car when it gets hot due to a hard work out (especially if you do track days). Also logs ideally should be done as follows. Put car in 4th gear, start at 2000rpm (approx 35mph) start logging and floor the car to 6500rpm without interruption. Reason being this keeps the car under load for a long period so will highlight faults/problem areas more easily. Now i am aware 6500rpm in 4th is Triple figure speeds. I am in NO WAY ADVOCATING SPEEDING. If you can't find a private road/track then you can do the same process in 3rd but again be aware 6500rpm in 3rd is still around 85-90mph. I also recommend a passenger does the logging.

Another thing to point out is that the highest settings you can apply doesn't necessarily mean that is the best for the car. Just because you get high no.s the actual way the power is delivered could be all wrong. Shape of the curve is important and you are after the smoothest flatest curve possible. This means the car is more driveable rather than having a big shove which either dies off quickly or is lost through wheelspin. As i said earlier unless you are chasing no's then ideally you want as little timing pull as possible. My peak lb/ft comes in nearly 500rpm later on 857 compared to 976 which makes the car more driveable.

So after all that waffle (which i hope provides some insight and help but i feel necessary to back up my tips) these are the main points to take away:

1. Whenever you get your car mapped at whatever stage - LEAVE IT ALONE until you get any further mods.

2. When you get new mods after the map either go back to the tuner and ask them to max the settings safely OR find someone with VCDS (if you don't have it) who can log the car for you. By all means ask what settings other people are using with same/similar mods. But don't just use those settings without logging.

3. When logging these are the main things you want to log. Use the advanced measuring blocks option and then log the following blocks in this order (remember to be in Turbo Mode):

115 - Boost (Specified, Actual also has Engine Speed & Load) - There shouldn't be any wild differences. +/- 50mbar is fine but if your regularly getting say -100mbar or more you have a boost leak BUT look at the N75 aswell

114 - Engine Load & N75 - N75 will initially show 99.6% while the Turbo spools up - then from say around 2500rpm it will drop to anywhere between 50-70% depending on what stage you are at. After about 5500rpm the % will go back up as the turbo can no longer flow the air being asked for. If it stays at 99.6 right the way through you have a boost leak.

020 - Cylinder Correction - Ideally no more than -4 sustained and closer to 0 is better. -5 is ok briefly on a single cylinder but no more than 200-300rpm. Over -5 is dangerous and starting to get to piston melting territory

230 - Fuel Rail Pressure (Specified & Actual) - There should never ever be more than a 5.0bar difference in pressure. If there is you have a problem.

003 - Intake Air Mass - Helps to see if you are having problems with your intake

The reason i say that order is this will put the RPM in the first couple of columns of the log meaning you can read across and see exactly where any faults/problem areas are. You can log other blocks but they are the main ones to log.

4. Highest settings don't necessarily mean the best running car. Your car's standard map from the manufacturer has no timing pull for a reason. Ideally you want the same.

5. Altering the settings DOES NOT GIVE MASSIVE GAINS. Even with K04 you might get 5bhp & 5lb/ft upping the Boost or timing by 1 notch. Similarly B9 doesn't mean Max Power. Settings 757 could give more power/torque than 867. This is why you have to log the car.

6. Remember that a RR can NEVER replicate the real world. This is why i said earlier that a tuner (In my opinion) should log your car on the road as well once getting a basis from the dyno.

I have purposely left the Names of Software Supplier and Tuner for my car so as not to cause any arguments. Those who know me know who they both are. This is not specific to any one software company either. The way the settings are altered differs between tuners and it may mean you have to send the map from your car to the tuner to be altered for you.

Well i have probably waffled enough now Hopefully this will help people when deciding on logging & altering settings. Or help you sleep at night

Just remember i am in no way an expert and don't claim to be either. I just feel that people pay good money for this software and associated hardware and you should be getting value for that money. To me this means a fast BUT safe & reliable car

Carl

[Greeners]

Carl, will leave this here for now as it will get better coverage here but once the 'debate' starts it would probably be better in the tuning section! 

[KRL]

Great write up Carl well done  

Can't really agree with one of your statements though:

020 - Cylinder Correction - Ideally no more than -4 sustained and closer to 0 is better. -5 is ok briefly on a single cylinder but no more than 200-300rpm. Over -5 is dangerous and starting to get to piston melting territory

I would not class getting -5 (or over) timing pull as being in piston melting territory I would class it as not being ideal as there is still a lot headroom.

Our ECUs can pull the timing by up to -12 on each cylinder so at -5 you still have -7 left to pull.  Even if the ECU pulls the timing by -12 and this is still not enough it can then start cutting boost.  This means it is highly unlikely that you will ever get into piston melting territory because of timing pull.

Our ECUs tend to pull timing in large chunks but only add timing in small slices and this is why it is not ideal to have lots of timing pull - as the ECU will have removed more timing (in chunks) than if you were running a lower timing setting and you will therefore make better power with less timiing pull and a lower timing setting.  Log block 11 to see overall timing advance in comparison with block 20 and you will see this.

[Hurdy]

REVO recommend keeping the timing pull below -5 and 0. The nearer to 0 you are the better for the engine. I wouldn't like to see much over -6 on mine, but at the moment it is zero's all round with just minor timing correction when using nitrous. Every notch you can advance the timing gives you more power, but as you do, you can get timing pull through the ECU which negates the advancing of the timing through the tuning software. The balance is getting the two to their optimal settings.

[muckipup]

Great write-up Carl 

Wish I had seen a thread like this when I started logging stuff a few months back!

[B3n]

Oh god this thread has just made me nervous mainly because when i had me car remapped it wasnt road tested before or after. It was just put on a rolling road and tested before and after

Sorry to hijack but this is a related question but im currently REVO stage 1 since having the map i have added a cat back Miltek and a high flow panel filter should i have my settings checked? If so can someone recomend me somewhere in the South West/Wales who would do this

Ben

[vRS Carl]

I would not class getting -5 (or over) timing pull as being in piston melting territory I would class it as not being ideal as there is still a lot headroom.

Our ECUs can pull the timing by up to -12 on each cylinder so at -5 you still have -7 left to pull.  Even if the ECU pulls the timing by -12 and this is still not enough it can then start cutting boost.  This means it is highly unlikely that you will ever get into piston melting territory because of timing pull.

Our ECUs tend to pull timing in large chunks but only add timing in small slices and this is why it is not ideal to have lots of timing pull - as the ECU will have removed more timing (in chunks) than if you were running a lower timing setting and you will therefore make better power with less timiing pull and a lower timing setting.  Log block 11 to see overall timing advance in comparison with block 20 and you will see this.

I did say i was no expert  

However i know of one car that melted a piston due to running excessive timing. From some of the last logs on the car before the incident he had timing pull of -5.8 on 2 cylinders for around 2k rpm and -6.1 on the other 2 over the same range in the RPM band. So i would have to disagree that -5 is not piston melting territory. Also this is what i was told by the designer of a tuning software.

As Hurdy says and i said in my OP keeping the car as close to 0 as possible is better. But that is just my opinion based on my experience

Oh god this thread has just made me nervous mainly because when i had me car remapped it wasnt road tested before or after. It was just put on a rolling road and tested before and after

Sorry to hijack but this is a related question but im currently REVO stage 1 since having the map i have added a cat back Miltek and a high flow panel filter should i have my settings checked? If so can someone recomend me somewhere in the South West/Wales who would do this

Ben

Testing on the RR is fine Ben. But it means the car can only ever run at about 90-95%. On road logging is the only way to be 100%. Whoever applied the REVO will have loaded REVO's recommended settings for Stage 1 and then just checked it on the Dyno to ensure nothing was running dangerous. I just said about road testing as i personally believe that is what they should do and if i was a tuner it's what i would do.

You don't need to have the settings altered for a CBE & Panel Filter. CBE does absolutely nothing other than alter the sound as all the restriction is before the CAT (unless your original tailpipes were 2 drinking straws ) With a panel filter your car will be able to breath slightly better but you will be lucky to get a 1Bhp increase so i would suggest that the car will be fine as it is

Once you start getting things like Uprated intercooler, CAI, HPFP, Turbo Discharge pipe, TBE etc then the settings will need to be altered to take those into account

[B3n]

Thanks for putting my mind at rest

[KRL]

I did say i was no expert  

However i know of one car that melted a piston due to running excessive timing. From some of the last logs on the car before the incident he had timing pull of -5.8 on 2 cylinders for around 2k rpm and -6.1 on the other 2 over the same range in the RPM band. So i would have to disagree that -5 is not piston melting territory. Also this is what i was told by the designer of a tuning software.

As Hurdy says and i said in my OP keeping the car as close to 0 as possible is better. But that is just my opinion based on my experience

I think we are singing off the same sheet  

Of course I would rather not see timing pull of -5 or more.  I set my car to within 0 to -3 timing pull wise and this is what I recommend others to do if asked.  My point is that if people are seeing -5 or more it does not mean their pistons are going to melt and I do not want people to read this and then log their car and start panicking because they are seeing -5 timing pull.

Timing pull is very dependent on outside factors like the weather, heatsoak, spark plugs etc.  All of these factors will impact how much timing pull you see in any given situation.

[vRS Carl]

I did say i was no expert 

However i know of one car that melted a piston due to running excessive timing. From some of the last logs on the car before the incident he had timing pull of -5.8 on 2 cylinders for around 2k rpm and -6.1 on the other 2 over the same range in the RPM band. So i would have to disagree that -5 is not piston melting territory. Also this is what i was told by the designer of a tuning software.

As Hurdy says and i said in my OP keeping the car as close to 0 as possible is better. But that is just my opinion based on my experience

I think we are singing off the same sheet 

Of course I would rather not see timing pull of -5 or more.  I set my car to within 0 to -3 timing pull wise and this is what I recommend others to do if asked.  My point is that if people are seeing -5 or more it does not mean their pistons are going to melt and I do not want people to read this and then log their car and start panicking.

Timing pull is very dependent on outside factors like the weather, heatsoak, spark plugs etc.  All of these factors will impact how much timing pull you see in any given situation.

Now i get you 

Probably should have worded it better. The point i was trying to make is if you see it briefly (say only 200-300 rpm) then it's nothing to worry about but if you see -5 or above for say 2k rpm this is a problem and needs to be rectified asap 

[vRS Carl]

Mods any chance of moving this to the correct section

Also is it worth making it a sticky??