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Author Topic: Possibly Another DRL Method...  (Read 6888 times)

Offline rdfcpete

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Possibly Another DRL Method...
« on: October 27, 2010, 11:34:03 pm »
I've done all sorts DRL posts and threads in my nearly 18 months on the forum, but I've never been able to find a DRL method that I like (in terms of style), that my cars electrical components will support.

I've finally found the method I was looking for (very similar to the Audi A3/A4/A6 Xenon DRLs, the models BEFORE the strips came in, so MY06-MY08), the only catch being that it's on a MK4 R32 and it's bit of a 'bodge', it would seem. The composer claims its reliable though, which is cool and it's got me very, very interested.

These are the Audi bulbs I was talking about:



I always thought that style used the Hi-Beam bulbs anyway, until Sean aka Teutonic_Tamer kindly put me straight that they use a bulb specially for the DRL purpose. These bulbs are a P21W tungsten filament bulb.

Here's what the guy in the US has managed - Linky here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4948562-HID-daytime-running-lights&p=66553431

I think that looks ruddy cool and meets my requirements cosmetically to a tee  8)

My first question is; could it be applied to a MK5 do we think? I don't have anywhere near a foundation level of electrical knowledge, hence the question so I appreciate any pointers  :smiley:
Would I need the Mk5 30byte controller (my car doesn't have this, it has the basic one) to support this wiring and DRL functionality?

Diagram of how the US MK4 owner achieved it:


He comments that it was bit of a mare to setup - If anyone thinks it's a goer, I'd love to pick their brains please. It's really the only DRL that I think would suit my car and work well  :happy2: Depending on how much the BMW relay is, it could perhaps be achieved for relatively low cost also?

Thanks guys,
Pete.
Pete


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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Possibly Another DRL Method...
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2010, 08:32:00 am »
Pete, the bulbs those Audi DRLs use arn't 'special' - the P21 bulb must be the most common auto bulb on the planet.  What IS special in the Audis is the shape of the reflector - these are designed to 'scatter' the light over wide angles - whereas a conventional main beam reflectors are more parabolic, focussing the beam into a pencil-like spot light over a very narrow angle.

IF yo wanted to use the main beam location on the Golf 5, then ideally you'd need to open up the headlamp housing and re-engineer the reflector.  If you keep the existing reflector, and just lower the light output like that Mk4 - then they will just look like glorified side lights.  This kind of system was tried in the 1980s - and it was dropped because it was utterly useless as a DRL.
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline rdfcpete

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Re: Possibly Another DRL Method...
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2010, 12:29:30 pm »
Pete, the bulbs those Audi DRLs use arn't 'special' - the P21 bulb must be the most common auto bulb on the planet.  What IS special in the Audis is the shape of the reflector - these are designed to 'scatter' the light over wide angles - whereas a conventional main beam reflectors are more parabolic, focussing the beam into a pencil-like spot light over a very narrow angle.
Fairplay. I've not come across them before if I'm absolutely honest.

IF yo wanted to use the main beam location on the Golf 5, then ideally you'd need to open up the headlamp housing and re-engineer the reflector.  If you keep the existing reflector, and just lower the light output like that Mk4 - then they will just look like glorified side lights.  This kind of system was tried in the 1980s - and it was dropped because it was utterly useless as a DRL.
Why was it thought of as useless?
I like the idea of the MK4 .:R's DRL's pictured above and I think those would work well - maybe I'm missing the reasons as to why it wouldn't?

They would mean I'm clearly seen by other road users in the day from all angles and they're not blinding, to me it's a winner. The strips DRL's and Hella LED DRL's may be more dynamic and agile in their light output, but at the end of the day to the naked eye, they all do the same thing.

I want to entertain this idea and give it a go, I just need more interest from other users who might be willing to experiment with the wiring too to share thoughts and ideas :happy2:
Pete


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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Possibly Another DRL Method...
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2010, 12:46:01 pm »
Pete, the bulbs those Audi DRLs use arn't 'special' - the P21 bulb must be the most common auto bulb on the planet.  What IS special in the Audis is the shape of the reflector - these are designed to 'scatter' the light over wide angles - whereas a conventional main beam reflectors are more parabolic, focussing the beam into a pencil-like spot light over a very narrow angle.
Fairplay. I've not come across them before if I'm absolutely honest.
On most cars, though not the Golf 5, P21 bulbs are generally used for all rear bulbs (reverse, rear fog, indicator, brake [when separate from the 5W tails]) and front indicators. :wink:  My Audi has 14 P21 bulbs!  :P


IF yo wanted to use the main beam location on the Golf 5, then ideally you'd need to open up the headlamp housing and re-engineer the reflector.  If you keep the existing reflector, and just lower the light output like that Mk4 - then they will just look like glorified side lights.  This kind of system was tried in the 1980s - and it was dropped because it was utterly useless as a DRL.
Why was it thought of as useless?
Because they didn't 'scatter' the light.  They didn't actually 'catch your attention'. :smiley:  The other issue was idiots using them at night instead of proper dipped-beam headlamps! :fighting:


I like the idea of the MK4 .:R's DRL's pictured above and I think those would work well - maybe I'm missing the reasons as to why it wouldn't?
You are missing the point - those Mk4 versions do NOT produce any light scatter - and so would not be noticed any more than side lights.  If you actually want them to work in the true meaning of DRLs - then do not do this mod - you'll be wasting your dosh.


They would mean I'm clearly seen by other road users in the day from all angles and they're not blinding, to me it's a winner.
No they wont.  They are a spot lamp beam, so would NOT be seen 'from all angles'.

Your right about them not being blinding, but then neither is my purple helmet! :evilgrin:


The strips DRL's and Hella LED DRL's may be more dynamic and agile in their light output, but at the end of the day to the naked eye, they all do the same thing.
They do not all do the same.  The actual spread of light from an LED is considerably different to a tungsten filament bulb such as a P21.


I want to entertain this idea and give it a go, I just need more interest from other users who might be willing to experiment with the wiring too to share thoughts and ideas :happy2:
If you do do this mod, I think you will be very disapointed.  However, it will be other road users who judge how effective they are - and sadly, on a yank forum, you will NOT get an honest answer on the genuine effect of their alleged primary and intended function.
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline rdfcpete

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Re: Possibly Another DRL Method...
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2010, 01:18:32 pm »
Ah, fair do's.

That firmly puts me back in the "No DRL's for me" court I think.

I'm only really looking for something slightly brigther than a side light. A lot of vehicles (with standard Halogen headlight clusters) that use DRL's have an appearance that in reality doesn't look any brighter than a powerful sidelight in the daylight. Examples would be the MY10/11 VW Van range, B8 A4 (non Xenon) and the new MK6 Golfs (again, non Xenon). I'm sure you'll know what I mean.

Now I fully appreciate what you're saying and you're factually correct about the bulb patterns and beams etc, but I'll be honest in saying that if that MK4 R32 drove past me in a queue of traffic after a MK6 golf did so with the little yellow DRLs (non Xenon model, say a 1.9 TDI for example), both would be equally noticeable to me I'm sure, as they would be to other road users. At a glance, I don't think one would stand out to the naked eye over the other. In fact, Mk6 Golf's with the Halogen headlights have driven past me before and after looking, I've question to myself whether they have sidelights on or if they're indeed DRL's. When they first hit the UK roads on release, I wasn't sure. They're not striking. They seem less effective than the Xenon based whiter DRL LED strips (like the Golf R + Audi A5s etc...), yet still do a job. This is what I was looking to get in on, as other road users are still likely to immediately observe a Mk6 golf with DRL's on than one without any light output at all, perhaps.

You're probably right, it may be a lot of expense for not much gain and therefore I probably won't pursue it, but I'm still confident they'd be a better DRL than my standard sidelights. I've even got some of the best bulbs I could find W5W LED's with a 100 lumen output (after trying 6 different sets as a trial and error exercise) but even they are no better than the original OEM halogen ones during the day.
50% of the hi-beam ones (again as demonstrated by the US guy on the Mk4 R32) must be an advantage and an improvement, even if they're not full time, genuine and 'proper' DRL's?

Overall, I know it's a 6/10 result I may get, but that's fine as I'm not after a 10/10 result in terms of quality and true DRL'ness. I won't get that unless I go for something like Robins or the set PND recently posted up - the 4x LED bulbs in the GTI foglight housing which I know you're interested in :happy2:

Cheers Sean.
Pete


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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Possibly Another DRL Method...
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2010, 02:15:55 pm »
Ah, fair do's.

That firmly puts me back in the "No DRL's for me" court I think.
I certainly don't wish to be known as the person who put a big size 12 Doc Martin on your cheque book - but just trying to give a 'reasoned' opinion.  :wink:


I'm only really looking for something slightly brigther than a side light. A lot of vehicles (with standard Halogen headlight clusters) that use DRL's have an appearance that in reality doesn't look any brighter than a powerful sidelight in the daylight. Examples would be the MY10/11 VW Van range, B8 A4 (non Xenon) and the new MK6 Golfs (again, non Xenon). I'm sure you'll know what I mean.
You've sort of nailed it.  OK, if you see a non-xenon Mk6 Golf - on their own on open country roads - then their DRLs do sort of do the job of catching your eye.  However, put the same Mk6 in say a busy city, or even on the open road with other cars - and I've no doubt you wouldn't notice the Mk6.  And the Mk6 (and the likes with non LEDs) will become even more invisible as LEDs become more prevalent.

Regarding the facelifted T5 Transporter, OK, they also use tungsten filament bulbs for DRLs - but the main reasons why they are slightly more effective than say the Mk6 - is because a/ the T5 is a much larger vehicle compared to a normal road car, and b/ their lights are much higher up from the road surface, and wider appart - so they will stand out considerably easier compared to normal light heights on cars.


Now I fully appreciate what you're saying and you're factually correct about the bulb patterns and beams etc, but I'll be honest in saying that if that MK4 R32 drove past me in a queue of traffic after a MK6 golf did so with the little yellow DRLs (non Xenon model, say a 1.9 TDI for example), both would be equally noticeable to me I'm sure, as they would be to other road users. At a glance, I don't think one would stand out to the naked eye over the other. In fact, Mk6 Golf's with the Halogen headlights have driven past me before and after looking, I've question to myself whether they have sidelights on or if they're indeed DRL's. When they first hit the UK roads on release, I wasn't sure. They're not striking. They seem less effective than the Xenon based whiter DRL LED strips (like the Golf R + Audi A5s etc...), yet still do a job. This is what I was looking to get in on, as other road users are still likely to immediately observe a Mk6 golf with DRL's on than one without any light output at all, perhaps.
You hit the nail on the head - the Mk4 R32 conversion, and the Mk6 non-xenon are fine in relative isolation - but they are nowhere near as striking as pukka LED DRLs - and it is the 'striking', 'catch your eye' attributes of the LEDs which make them so good at what they are.  And whilst the 're-designed' reflector tungsten-filament DRLs on my B7 RS4 (and with an added tweak in VCDS to 100% output - making them whiter than the 'yellow' they were from the factory) IS a big improvement over side lights and the early DRLs (a la Volvo etc) - they still get lost in the crowd when LED DRLs are surrounding me.


You're probably right, it may be a lot of expense for not much gain and therefore I probably won't pursue it, but I'm still confident they'd be a better DRL than my standard sidelights. I've even got some of the best bulbs I could find W5W LED's with a 100 lumen output (after trying 6 different sets as a trial and error exercise) but even they are no better than the original OEM halogen ones during the day.
By all means - if you want to do the mod purely on changing the 'aesthetics' or looks of your car, then go ahead.   But I think you already discovered that using dipped headlamps in daylight is FAR more effective than sidelights.

Oh, and just incase you didn't know - it is actually illegal to use sidelights on a moving vehicle in anything other than a 30mph built up area with street lights.  This law is applicable in the UK, most of Europe, and indeed even in North America (which is why the yanks call them 'city lights', rather than side lights).


50% of the hi-beam ones (again as demonstrated by the US guy on the Mk4 R32) must be an advantage and an improvement, even if they're not full time, genuine and 'proper' DRL's?
Hmmmmm . . . I disagree.  It is simply down to the design of the reflector - even if the main beams are run at 50% brightness, they will still dazzle oncomming motorists, due to the 'spotlight' beam pattern.  Oh, one other thing - US headlamps have a very different beam design to our European designs - you often see on the yankie forums where they fit 'E-code' headlamps instead of their (frankly pants) 'DOT' headlamps.

Thinking on my feet, I suppose if you could somehow fit a spacer in the headlamp, between the bulb and the bulb retaining ring (effectively pulling the bulb closer to the rear of the reflector) - then this would alter the focal length of the bulb, and then widen the angle.  Or would that narrow the angle even more . . . . . ???  :rolleye:


Overall, I know it's a 6/10 result I may get, but that's fine as I'm not after a 10/10 result in terms of quality and true DRL'ness. I won't get that unless I go for something like Robins or the set PND recently posted up - the 4x LED bulbs in the GTI foglight housing which I know you're interested in :happy2:
RedRobins DRLs are extremely effective - arguably the best non-standard (and non-OEM parts bin raiding) DRL.  But I get a lot of fog, and I personally wouldn't like to loose the front fogs.

Just really want to see those PND posted in action.
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Richn83

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Re: Possibly Another DRL Method...
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2010, 03:37:04 pm »


Oh, and just incase you didn't know - it is actually illegal to use sidelights on a moving vehicle in anything other than a 30mph built up area with street lights.  This law is applicable in the UK, most of Europe, and indeed even in North America (which is why the yanks call them 'city lights', rather than side lights).


Shaun, can I just check if this was meant to say 'only sidelights' as it is obviously impossible to disable the sidelights when the dipped beam are active.  :evilgrin:

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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Possibly Another DRL Method...
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2010, 08:03:22 pm »


Oh, and just incase you didn't know - it is actually illegal to use sidelights on a moving vehicle in anything other than a 30mph built up area with street lights.  This law is applicable in the UK, most of Europe, and indeed even in North America (which is why the yanks call them 'city lights', rather than side lights).


Shaun, can I just check if this was meant to say 'only sidelights' as it is obviously impossible to disable the sidelights when the dipped beam are active.  :evilgrin:
Yup - correct! :happy2:  Well spotted. :P
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline rdfcpete

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Re: Possibly Another DRL Method...
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2010, 10:10:36 pm »
^^^ Agree with your points Sean and I'm glad I made a bit of sense  :laugh:

You're not putting your size 12s over my plans or cheque; you've given me a very accurate realisation about DRL's and probably have saved me a lot of time, cost and effort  :happy2: I'll check out the foglight surround ones as they could be excellent, or might be just okay. If they don't take off, I think I'll stick to Xenons tbh  :smiley:

Thanks.
Pete


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Offline big al

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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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