Not convinced my Ed30 GIAC Map is as it should be

[PDT]

yes, even at timing 2 or 3 (cant remember which one) it pulled 6+ degrees

[chris s]

Dave - Cheers for the offer of the test with the plugs and coil packs, I'll fit mine plugs over the weekend and will get back in touch with you for another session on the Dyno

[chris s]

OK guys I have spoken to Jim at Star Performance who added the GIAC stage 1  map to my Ed30, and he was moderately helpful...

I would be interested in peoples thoughts about his comments....

Jim was annoyed I had the GIAC map taken off, as he felt the 6.8 degrees of timing pull would be acceptable on a Dyno, due to the increased air intake temps, he's not concerned with seeing values up to 10 when on a Dyno.

Also he suggested the plugs and fuel pump should really be replaced ... I'm OK with the plugs despite only have 25k on the clock but the fuel pump is another £270ish and not something I had heard.

Regarding the Dyno reading he suggested that DSG cars are hard to extract the full power.. something about the gas pedal??? and there can be big differences between dynos as we all know ..

He then went on to say that whilst he would put the GIAC map back on.... he would not turn it around in a day as he'd need to Dyno it before and after plus any issue resolution.  This sounded like a tactic to put me off as he knows I have a 3hr trip each way to get to his place.

Cheers

[heavyd]

Fuel pump is about £150, but your logs showed it to be ok
As far as dsg goes, mine was ok on the dyno?
I'm at pdt at 4.30 today if you wanna see how a dsg can get power down on a dyno ok!
I always thought Giac remaps were generic plug any play maps? Not full day maps that needed tweaking? Especially at stage 1?

[robdf2]

Do you mean replacing the fuel pump for a like for like oem pump or buying the upgraded internals?

sounds weird if he was suggesting buying a new standard pump? unless he knew the solenoid was weak?

The other thing which sounds a bit strange is the high timing pull he suggests is acceptable on a dyno , yes maybe with higher intake temperatures you could account for a couple of degrees timing pull , but pulling upto 10 would really be pulling your power back ! how would he benefit from setting your car up properley with such a high timing pull?

my timing pull was diagnosed on a rolling road so to me it doesnt make any sense at all.

[chris s]

He was suggesting that an upgraded pump should be fitted, but I didn't believe this was needed on a stage 1??? 

Also, he said he checked the ignition timing and it was nothing more than 1.... but I have nothing to prove or disprove this.... If he is telling the truth, then the only thing that has changed on the car was me replacing the DV with a Type D version... even though the original was fine when I took it off, but as I'd bought the new version I just stuck it on.

surely this can't cause any issues as it's VW????

[heavyd]

Uprated pump isnt needed on stage 1, but some people say it does make a difference. wouldnt have thought the DV would have made a difference unless it was fittted badly and has a loose hose?
Nothing wrong with dyno and DSG, heres proof

[Janner_Sy]

you gained a few more Hp there

[PDT]

Doms car had the REVO treatment (dsg stg1)

As for timing of 6.8 being ok, different tuners have different thoughts on whats acceptable. A car with timing pull of 8 wont make any more power than a car with timing pull of 3, so why run excessive timing?

When an engine spikes at 6-7 for a milisecond, and then returns to low levels of timing pull this is seen as acceptable but when it pulls a blanket level of 6-7 degrees accross a wide rpm range then something is wrong.

The fuel pump is fine, the logs prove this. It is worth trying a new set of coils and plugs (as I said, I have them in stock and you are welcome to try a set free of charge).

The problem arose on this car as soon as anything above stock power was requested, it isnt a software issue but an issue with the car itself. Im sure it will run just as well on Giac as it will on any other stg1 software, but not until the underlying issue is addressed.

As for timing pull of 10 being acceptable on a dyno due to airflow then a better dyno fan is needed. Our dyno fan puts out 30,000 cfm at a windspeed of 65mph, it has kept a 700bhp r34 skyline cool for over 5 hours of constant dyno testing. Whenever I have logged on-road and on-dyno I find the ti ing pull to be near enough identical. 

[Janner_Sy]

iirc one of Owen LCRs Cupra with GIAC stage 3 used to pull -12 at times for quite a considerable amount of time.  yet DJ horice with his revo was running no timing pull but both cars made the same 1/4 mile times and power. and that was logged on the road andnot dyno.  if the car is having to retard the timing that much its not setup correctly IMO

Shows which of the maps is better IMO.  Me personally i would ask for map adjustment if i had more than -5 just to be on the safe side

[chris s]

OK -checked the DV I fitted and put in some new NGK Plugs so will get in touch with Dave at PDT to see what we can work out... I may well have Revo put on and an exhaust he's got going...

Will keep this updated

[robdf2]

any updates chris?

[h4rdy]

I was under the impression that anything over a sustained -5 is piston melting territory?

In the Revo documentation for the SPS+ it quite clearly states that -3 is about the limit and if its over to pull the timing back.

And Dave@PDT is quite right, a dyno should not affect the timing pull that much if at all, and like he says if it does its time for a bigger fan!

Sounds like Star Performance is trying to cover its tracks when clearly he doesn't need to as its not his fault?

And if I saw -10 timing pull on a Dyno I would be reaching for the E-Stop! But it would probably be to late by the time I had got to it!

[chris s]

No updates from me as yet... although the new plugs are in and seem to be working fine... I have not been able to get back over to PDT for a RR session and possibly the REVO map... as getting back to Scotland for the free GIAC reflash is probably not realistic at the moment... I'll update people when I have more info

[h4rdy]

I know its no good info now................but its always a good idea to find a local(ish) tuner.

Maybe right off the GIAC and go for a Revo?

If its local.

Might cost you more in fuel in the long run driving to get it sorted.