****** FORMULA 1 THREAD ******

[RedRobin]

....The driver's championship may be, or should be, all about what you say, but the bottom line is the constructor's championship. The driver is an employed jockey and the bottom line is the money the team/constructor can attract to go towards the goal of winning a motor racing formula - The team heads are in control. The driver is the tip of the iceberg.

The 'Team' would have scored the same points whether Massa or Alonso finished first so that doesn't hold up mate.  This bit of cheating was all about the Drivers Championship and who currently has the most points.
 

....Yes, you're absolutely right. My reply was more directly in response to Carl's words about what F1 is all about. 

Even though I am a red car fan, I detest Alonso as a character and have nothing but admiration and respect for Felipe, so I was gutted to see what happened. Not only did Felipe Massa lose a possible first place but he was subsequently in the aftermath obliged to tell an 'untruth' as far as I can see.

[vRStu]

Not only did Felipe Massa lose a possible first place but he was subsequently in the aftermath obliged to tell an 'untruth' as far as I can see.

Which is exactly why they should both be punished, Massa (Whether he liked it or not) assisted in fixing the final result of this race and then lied about it afterwards.

I like Massa myself and I understand his position but sometimes you just have to say I don't want to be part of that, or even better and most suitable in Massa's case is that he's better than that.

[RedRobin]

Not only did Felipe Massa lose a possible first place but he was subsequently in the aftermath obliged to tell an 'untruth' as far as I can see.

Which is exactly why they should both be punished, Massa (Whether he liked it or not) assisted in fixing the final result of this race and then lied about it afterwards.

I like Massa myself and I understand his position but sometimes you just have to say I don't want to be part of that, or even better and most suitable in Massa's case is that he's better than that.

....I absolutely see your point and you're not wrong. However, this wouldn't be the first time I've sided with the 'bad' guys. 

[vRS Carl]

....The driver's championship may be, or should be, all about what you say, but the bottom line is the constructor's championship. The driver is an employed jockey and the bottom line is the money the team/constructor can attract to go towards the goal of winning a motor racing formula - The team heads are in control. The driver is the tip of the iceberg.

The 'Team' would have scored the same points whether Massa or Alonso finished first so that doesn't hold up mate.  This bit of cheating was all about the Drivers Championship and who currently has the most points.
 

....Yes, you're absolutely right. My reply was more directly in response to Carl's words about what F1 is all about. 

Even though I am a red car fan, I detest Alonso as a character and have nothing but admiration and respect for Felipe, so I was gutted to see what happened. Not only did Felipe Massa lose a possible first place but he was subsequently in the aftermath obliged to tell an 'untruth' as far as I can see.

But that is my Point Robin,

We know its a team sport and Ferrari would still have had the same points. So how can they claim this was for the "Team". I reckon Ferrari have done themselves more harm than good with this stunt.

As a serviceman i do have to follow orders BUT i am allowed to make my own judgement and if i believe an issued order to be wrong then i don't have to abide by it. Even if you are given an order ultimately YOU carry out the action so in all honesty Massa is as much to blame. He could have done a Damon Hill and said "if he tries to overtake we are both coming off"

But surely if Alonso was faster he would have legitimately got past Massa.

Any driver can be quick with clean air in front of him and the only times Alonso really caught Massa was when they caught up to the traffic.

Look at the point where Alonso tried to overtake. He legitimately did get past only to lose the position on the next corner. He then has a Hissy Fit. In the next few laps Massa then establishes a 2.5sec lead only to be told Alonso is faster

Alonso could have gotten past him, but at great risk of one of them coming off, i believe that is what frustrated him. When two drivers are driving the same car it takes a kamikaze move to get past at this level. Ferrari were desperate to get a 1-2 result this weekend, even before the race started the team manager was saying this result of both finishing with no dramas was paramount.
It does seem wrong watching these goings on but thats just the way it is, everyone is pissed off because it was dick dastardly who beneiftted, if you read through this thread, most peoples opinions of who they want to win are based on whether they are german or simply foreign. 
I prefer cars to people on the whole  so save my irrational feelings for Eastenders.

All the really great moments in F1 have been when drivers are being mental and overtaking when they really cant or are risking death, thats why mansel was the best for me as he was simply bonkers and just went for it.

Alonso did get past him legitimately and then lost it on the very next corner so you can hardly say he was faster. If he was he would have been able to get past (as he already had) and maintain the position. For me what makes a good driver is the fact he can beat someone who has the same car. Look at Hamilton & Button. There cars evenly matched but Hamilton regularly out qualifies Button and finishes ahead of him.

Yes my opinion of who i want to win is down to the fact i'm British and i want a British driver to win. So i support Button & Hamilton equally. Im not fussed which car they drive. I don't see anything wrong with that. Equally though i'm not fussed when Webber wins. The only 2 drivers i don't like are Alonso & Vettel. Vettel i don't like at the moment because of his immaturity and arrogance. But he is only 23 and has a lot to learn. Alonso is just a complete tw@. He thinks he is better than he is and as soon as something doesn't go his way he stomps his feet, teddies get chucked out the pram and he starts moaning non-stop. Rather than just concentrating on the race and trying to get himself onto the podium through his own skill and merit.

[RedRobin]

@ Carl:

Re Vettel, try and see some of his non-podium interviews - He's a much nicer guy than comes across when racing. He does have a lot to learn though, just as Hamilton is succeeding in doing.

I don't know anyone who likes Alonso's character who isn't Spanish. Very talented driver but aren't most of them in F1?

[vRS Carl]

Yeah i agree Vettel is getting better which is why i said i don't like him at the moment.

My Wife's cousin is married to a Spanish guy and him and his family can't stand Alonso either

[RedRobin]

My Wife's cousin is married to a Spanish guy and him and his family can't stand Alonso either

....That's what I like to hear! 

[wigit]

we were robbed of what was turning into a cracking race

lewis and jenson are playing the numbers game though and keep scoring

2011 ferrari has been spotted testing

[S2 Ant]

Massa was 14/1 to win the GP.  I reckon there was quite a few unhappy punters about..............

Another twist on the matter?

....Certainly another twist but not one to be concerned about. It's entirely up to those who choose to gamble - Anyone who gambles (including stocks and shares) should always be well prepared for the possibility of losing. No bet is safe.

I suppose that if some heavy money was on Alonso winning, someone would claim it was rigged. I don't think the Mafia are involved in Ferrari - They are too much in the spotlight for it to remain discrete.

See if the same holds true elsewhere, lets say football where things have been rigged before... did they say, ah well, you place ya bets so its your risk, or did those involved get a bollocking for it?

The Team had nothing to gain by swapping positions and it doesnt matter how you try and spin it and what BS you come out with to justify it... you cant. As for any previous team orders in the past, the same should apply, just because its been gotten away with before doesnt make it right. Ferrari done it because they knew they'd get away with it. If any team proven to be doing it were punished properly you can bet your last fiver it would stop very quickly, but it wont happen so they'll carry on doing it.

I think i read somewhere that if they hadnt swapped positions, then Massa would have been 23 points or 24 points behind Hamilton, lets look at that in old money... thats less than 10 points, which is 1 race win so to say hes not really in contention is also bull crap

[RedRobin]

^^^^
Who are you accusing of talking BS, Ant?

You have quoted my post in your reply so I'm inclined to think you may mean me. And I never said Felipe was not in championship contention.

That may be your opinion (and that's all it can be) but if you read my posts on this subject more carefully you'll hopefully see that I'm not saying that I think Ferrari were right in their decisions. But I do at least have enough objectivity to see their point of view whether I agree with them or not.

[S2 Ant]

The "You" wasnt aimed at you, just poorly worded response to the thread, was more meant in general as in, people cant justify what they done as oppose to you specifically.

The quote on you was for the gambling part but i just got carried away with the rest lol

[RedRobin]

^^^^
Thanks for explaining, Ant 

[vRS Carl]

Not looking good for McLaren is it.

Hamilton 1.2secs off & Button 1.6Secs of the pace after practice 2.

I see they are now questioning RedBulls "flexi" front wing. Apparently it gives them 12kmh extra in a corner 

Chuffed to see Vettel is 1/2 sec quicker than Alonso though 

[cuzmk5]

 Mclaren do seem to run heavy fuel loads on friday practice, qualifing will show how far they are off the pace,  they have three week break after this one to come up with somthing to catch the redbulls and ferrari.  just need to keep scoring the points like they have been to keep them at the top until they come up with a solution.

[RobH]

Mclaren do seem to run heavy fuel loads on friday practice, qualifing will show how far they are off the pace,  they have three week break after this one to come up with somthing to catch the redbulls and ferrari.  just need to keep scoring the points like they have been to keep them at the top until they come up with a solution.

Yep Mclaren need to find nearly a second in the next 3 weeks maybe more as the other teams will be developing aswell, its not looking good for them just now.

Just aslong as Alonso the spoilt, cheating, winging little brat doesnt finish the race tomorrow ill be happy, hopefully in a ball of flames .