±±±±±± Formula 1, 2012 Season. ±±±±±

[Janner_Sy]

im stealing this 

[RedRobin]

RR you could see in the replays that ark could have literally pushed Vettel right off of the track and kept him behind but Mark obviously doesnt see himself as bigger than the team.  Plus when Mark has turned his engine down its hardly surprising Vettel had the speed after he didnt bother listening to the team order and kept his on full power.

Alot of ex F1 stars are calling for Vettel to receive a 1 race ban(awarded by the team) to show him hes not bigger than the team.  I think that would be a great idea.

I was actually gutted Alonso crashed out, which i never thought id say.  After watching him lst season i have ALOT more respect for him than i did before, he deserved it last season and might be the best chance we have of seeing redbull knocked off the next title.

....I was gutted about Alonso crashing out too (I wish it had been either Raikonnen or Webber!  ). I went through a couple of seasons of disliking Alonso but have changed my mind about him since he has been at Ferrari. I don't think that I will ever like Raikonnen though!

Reports I've read (from Christian Horner IIRC) state that both Red Bull cars were in the same state of engine mode. Webber isn't exactly as squeaky clean as he makes out - I'm referring the to last time these two had a set-to which ended with them both off. On this 2013 occasion, Webber nearly put Vettel into the pit exit wall.

I think we all need to put aside who are our favourite drivers are and realise that of course a driver puts himself ahead of the team - I think it's fundamentally in their psyche/character to win at all costs and especially in the heat of the moment. The teams and drivers need each other but it's rather like the fable of the frog giving the scorpion a lift across the river and the scorpion then stinging the frog after the river crossing - Why? - Because it's simply in the scorpion's nature. It's in the nature of a F1 racing driver to win and to beat every rival including and especially their team mate.

[RobH]

I was actually gutted Alonso crashed out, which i never thought id say.  After watching him lst season i have ALOT more respect for him than i did before, he deserved it last season and might be the best chance we have of seeing redbull knocked off the next title.

+1 I would much rather see alonso win the title than Vettel and id also like to see either Alonso or Hamilton in the same team as Vettel to put the little sh*t in his place, but we know redbull would never compromise vettels "talents" like that, it would be his 3rd and last world title. Hamilton had vettel in his back pocket in gp2, it would be no different now.

[E30Dom]

Alonso's/Ferrari stupid fault for not coming in and changing the nose...

As for Vettel, Mark had wound his engine back as requested by the team, hardly a fair battle, greedy little German Tw*T, he's not a team player and is out for himself, loved Marks comments on the podium... Blued eyed boy can do no wrong...

[Hedge]

[Kalpsn2000]

^^^
 

[Makaveli]

RR you could see in the replays that ark could have literally pushed Vettel right off of the track and kept him behind but Mark obviously doesnt see himself as bigger than the team.  Plus when Mark has turned his engine down its hardly surprising Vettel had the speed after he didnt bother listening to the team order and kept his on full power.

Alot of ex F1 stars are calling for Vettel to receive a 1 race ban(awarded by the team) to show him hes not bigger than the team.  I think that would be a great idea.

I was actually gutted Alonso crashed out, which i never thought id say.  After watching him lst season i have ALOT more respect for him than i did before, he deserved it last season and might be the best chance we have of seeing redbull knocked off the next title.

....I was gutted about Alonso crashing out too (I wish it had been either Raikonnen or Webber!  ). I went through a couple of seasons of disliking Alonso but have changed my mind about him since he has been at Ferrari. I don't think that I will ever like Raikonnen though!

Reports I've read (from Christian Horner IIRC) state that both Red Bull cars were in the same state of engine mode. Webber isn't exactly as squeaky clean as he makes out - I'm referring the to last time these two had a set-to which ended with them both off. On this 2013 occasion, Webber nearly put Vettel into the pit exit wall.

I think we all need to put aside who are our favourite drivers are and realise that of course a driver puts himself ahead of the team - I think it's fundamentally in their psyche/character to win at all costs and especially in the heat of the moment. The teams and drivers need each other but it's rather like the fable of the frog giving the scorpion a lift across the river and the scorpion then stinging the frog after the river crossing - Why? - Because it's simply in the scorpion's nature. It's in the nature of a F1 racing driver to win and to beat every rival including and especially their team mate.

RedRobin I think you are missing a crucial bit of the argument here... assuming both drivers turned down their engines at the same time and Webber is of the belief Vettel is not going to overtake him as was agreed. It would be logical to think Webber was going alot slower without letting those cars from rival teams catch up with himself and Vettel. Therefore while Webber is cruising along and taking it easy Vettel closed the gap further and took advantage by overtaking - how is that fair? I personally would consider that as cheating as he took advantage of Webber cruising at a lower speed whereas if Webber was driving competitively he could have driven harder and possibly extended the gap between himself and Vettel. We dont know what would have happened if both drivers were to race to the finish but as far as I am concerned they were both playing by different rules so it wasnt fair on Webber.

[RedRobin]

^^^^
@ Makaveli:

Who said that racing for the F1 championship had to be "fair"?

Vettel certainly took full advantage, Webber tried to resist but couldn't, so Vettel got to the chequered flag first and won the extra championship points. To win a championship a driver has to be ruthless and Vettel has that quality/characteristic.

Vettel's overtake was unpopular (although it was very exciting and enjoyable to watch).... So what.

F1 racing is constantly full of events which might be termed as unfair, both on and off the track.

[RedRobin]

.
Who agrees that Suzi Perry is so far doing a really great job of presenting F1 on BBC?

Jake Humphry was an extremely difficult act to follow.

[Makaveli]

^^^^
@ Makaveli:

Who said that racing for the F1 championship had to be "fair"?

Vettel certainly took full advantage, Webber tried to resist but couldn't, so Vettel got to the chequered flag first and won the extra championship points. To win a championship a driver has to be ruthless and Vettel has that quality/characteristic.

Vettel's overtake was unpopular (although it was very exciting and enjoyable to watch).... So what.

F1 racing is constantly full of events which might be termed as unfair, both on and off the track.

I guess it all comes down to ethics! What you think is acceptable may not be seen as acceptable to others, I will leave it at that.

[RobH]

Vettel has gained plenty of points in the past from team orders, he's gained (at the moment) 7 points here by been "ruthless" and ignoring team orders, seems as though he only agrees with them when hes benefiting

Lets see how many he loses when Webber rights him off later on in the championship from been "ruthless"

7 point gain might be a 25 point loss later on.

At the end of the day its the team that sends them racing, when the team decides no more racing, that should be final, but no its all about me me me with vettel

Surprise surprise Robin defending vettels actions

[Janner_Sy]

^^^^
@ Makaveli:

Who said that racing for the F1 championship had to be "fair"?

Vettel certainly took full advantage, Webber tried to resist but couldn't, so Vettel got to the chequered flag first and won the extra championship points. To win a championship a driver has to be ruthless and Vettel has that quality/characteristic.

But couldnt.  Watch the replay of the overtake.  Webber just let him past rather than risk the team loosing both cars due to someone else's reckless behaviour.  On the replay Anthony Hamilton showed how Webber was on the correct line and had he stayed on that correct line Vettel would have been driven off the track and Webber would not have been at fault. He chose to think of the team.  Vettel didnt beat him, Webber let him past.

In the BTCC threads your normally very anti Plato for doing similar stuff 

[RedRobin]

^^^^
Yes, I'm human afterall, Sy, and therefore can be irrational  - I don't like Plato and I prefer Vettel to Webber (who I feel indifferent to).

As said by Makaveli, it is about ethics. I'm just saying that I understand and appreciate the attitudes of such highly competitive racers and I'm not willing to judge them or take a moral high ground, I'm just seeing the real world with warts and all. Really, all this is no big deal and not much different from other stuff that goes on in the arena of F1.

Most of us would probably like to think that we would not have done what Vettel did at Sepang, but until you are actually in any situation you never really know. It's hypothetical of course but...

[Janner_Sy]

Here you go Robin

Silverstone 2011.  Vettel basically asked the team to keep Webber who was faster, behind him.  Mark showed he was the quicker car by pulling alongside to prove a point and then held back as he was asked.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPCS3VXxGY

[Hedge]

Bunch of duplicitous, two-faced sh*ts.

Either let them race or ensure team orders are obeyed.