LOBA LO4XX Hybrid K04 Turbo

[DaveB@Vagbremtechnic]

Why would it get binned?  

Erm... ill have a stab at the following.

Money
Conflict of interests
Un-answered questions

Why do WE have to be carful Dave? We are all impartial... right? Surely people who have this product in there sights need any potential issues to be raised before they dump 4billion ugandan dollars on one, then find out its not quite all its cracked up to be.

Well if you want to tug at that thread (pardon the pun) things got out of hand and in fairness it would have got moderated anywhere else quite a bit sooner, as long as people declare their interests are open and discuss the products in an open minded way then I'm sure we can all be grown up and find out about this turbo...bang for buck it could be a game changer.

My point being this is the only place with info on the product, there's some tech questions been asked and hopefully the answers will be forthcoming soon

[danishmkvgti]

The thread is going ok at the minute. 
To be fair this type of upgrade is at the pointy end of modifications and the few mentalists who take there cars this far, have travelled down the long and w binding road enough to know how all this big tuner back and to upgrade thing works. 

  

[Janner_Sy]

the problem with the VAGOC thread was people started to take it personally i think.  this thread doesnt have that issue.

What comp wheel size would the TTRS turbo compare to on a Garrett turbo?  The Loba just uses a TTRS CHRA welded to the K04 mani/hotside does it not?

Still cant see how a TTRS Loba hybrid can produce 500FWHP (360WHP on a Maha (420WHP on anything else!)) with 5 cylinders, more fuel etc and the LO4xx can produce the same with one less piston and a more restrictive mani.

What is being said is the LO4xx will flow the same as a GTX3071?

Lag is only in existance for those who cannot select the correct gear. 

So its not just a hybrid K04, its actually a hybrid of two completely different turbos?

As i said in the VAGOC thread, Id love to see how this performs at JKMs rollers.  I dont think a stage 3 car has broken 400hp on there to date, so if the L)4xx can make this alleged 400hp minimum there then 

[danishmkvgti]

NEWSFLASH!!

Next faze for the Loba car is a fully built motor, (this will be the motor that will eventually go in our 4WD car)
& a stand alone EGT / AFR kit so everyone can see the data @ different boost pressures once & for all

If you want  big power with the associated lag then go for a big turbo! (I am on one of our sprint cars that's for sure!)
For a good fast road car the 4XX is unbeatable its very very strong at the top even using the stock N75 never mind an EBC
If you want more power than a stock K04 with more flexibility than a Garrett then go for a 4XX it's great inbetween option

Best thing for all to do now is let the cars do the talking, there are lots of excellent tuners on here so lets crack on it'll be good spirited fun!!  

Hello Statller from APR,

I was curious as to your statement above and was hoping you could clarify it for me.

Its common knowledge that the standard BW Ko4 is almost as large as a Garrett GT28RS if you measure the compressor wheels.

One size up in Garrett's line is a GT2871R.

The only appreciable difference between a GT28RS and a standard ko4 are the exhaust wheel size, exhaust housing and compressor cover sizes and the inlet to the compressor wheel, all of which are slightly larger to much larger in the Garrett units.

That being said, and from the dyno graphs you've shown of the Loba achieving peak torque around 4000-4500 rpm's, how is that this hybrid can be considered in between a standard ko4 and a proper Garrett GT28RS and GT2871R?

This is the number 1 question out there about this hybrid turbo and I am genuinely asking so you can help me understand.

Yes, I work for APR and we prefer Garrett turbo's to any turbo put together from parts not designed or intended to work together and not manufactured by a company with the proper equipment and resources to do so but the results are the results so even tossing all of that aside, I am truly curious as to your opinion in this matter as you stated above however, I was hoping you had some more technical information or data you could share that points to such?

Thanks!

Hello Kieth from APR!

So not to make this too boring for everyone else right now lets keep it nice and simple
We actually need to use a Garrett setup on our sprint car so no problems with the GTX series for the amazing top end!
Regards lag I was talking more Gt30's not 28's as all the GT28 cars I've fitted up have never set me on fire regards out + out performance over even a stock K04 although I've never fitted an APR kit so maybe they could be better???

Suppose we're lucky that we've have had the opportunity to try both setups and compare where as you can only go on my opinion so its a little unfair for you, maybe you should buy a Loba to test ?


Just for now let me post the Lobas true EGT's up for everyone as that seems the main concern.

If you need the Lobas specs e-mail Darius Loba I'm sure he'll talk turbo spec all day long, I've tried to get a compressor map but its hard work

Regards spool I'm talking useable accelerative power not where the turbo peeks
How are you going on with everything now? anything exciting happening?

Thanks

Thanks, that makes more sense that you were comparing it to something like a GT3076 but to be fair to the 30 series turbo's, the hybrid is 100bhp off in power delivery.  I personally don't like 30's on 2 liters of displacement.

What have you seen with 2871R's on 2.0TFSI's?  We see peak torque around 3300'ish rpm's and peak power of 480bhp with other supporting mods of course, but at a lot less than 3.2k GBP for the turbo and manifold assembly.

Right now we are on a GTX2867 and I see peak torque at 2900'ish rpm's and we have it up to 480bhp as well.

After the late 90's early 2000's, I never thought I would see anyone even try a hybrid turbo, lol.  I guess history repeats itself.

In our testing, we found that the runner and collector size leading in to the turbine on the standard ko4 was creating such a restriction that we had to retard timing quite a bit.  What is your actual timing at peak RPM?  Do you have the proper data logging tools to see it?  VCDS doesn't show a true actual timing angle after all compensations have been applied nor can you see which compensation strategy is the reason for the reduction in timing request.

Because of the runners and collectors choking off the exhaust flow beyond 380'ish, we developed the Stage 3 manifold and switched to a turbo with a larger exhaust housing.  This is why we have a Stage III, otherwise it would have been a much less expensive solution to try something like a hybrid.

Even today, we are upsizing in turbocharger once we hit the timing limit of whichever exhaust housing we are using at that moment.  The Stage III manifold is designed to flow a ton but on 30 series turbo's we've found that even a GT25 flange can be a point of restriction and that is much larger than the standard collector on a k04.

I was told the car had a problem with timing at high rpm, so what I describe above could be the issue you are facing  (don't know if that's true or not, that's what somebody told me).  If you need my datalogging, you can come down to the office some day and we can put it on the dyno and see.

Evan and I need to get up your way soon, we can bring a Stage III car if you have a free afternoon and you can run it around and take a look first hand.

Good luck with the project, let me know if I can help in any way.  The customer service you guys provide seems top notch so I expect your clients will be happy or you'll at least die trying!  Can't ask for more than that.

I for one find it to be a good idea to bring an APR stage III and Stattlers LOBA to the same track and have them try eachothers both for standing starts and general drivealibity. Hopefully this will happen and thereby bring some insight to where the different products is best suited 

[RedRobin]

As i said in the VAGOC thread, Id love to see how this performs at JKMs rollers.  I dont think a stage 3 car has broken 400hp on there to date, so if the L)4xx can make this alleged 400hp minimum there then 

....This couldn't be done with '4WD' cars such as the Golf R though, as JKM don't allow '4WD' on their 2WD rollers.

[Statller-Stevo]

Thanks Keith
I suppose we all have our little problems when things are pushed so far up the envelope even with the right equipment things can always go wrong once or twice but as you know that's what tunings about getting it perfect in the end then passing on a great product and seen as your working for a long established company I would imagine you've had lots of practice so no doubt you should be good
 
I'm not saying the Lobas perfect or for everyone or any other turbo on sale, its just another option to consider for the environment its inteded for surely we've got to give new products a chance before we dismiss them
 
Not trying to discredit the BT setups I like them and need to use them for some other projects but personally for I don't like them in a road car not when a modern diesel can catch you out so easy in this day and age
I'll prob be running GTX's on the 997 in the end as I don't use it too much on the road I suppose its the only way to achieve the performance I'm wanting from that particular one as we get ever hungry for more speed
 
 

I think it would be good for APR to bring along some cars to Marham or Vmax at some point, I'd genuinely (and I don't mean that patronisingly at all) like to see them run the high speed events not just 1/4 miles everyone knows I love these events and I do give credit where its due its a good event for the kind of expert tuning your talking about, I've seen a few APR cars run before but maybe they weren't set up quite right
 
By the way thanks for offer of help I'll let you know if we need any, its always good to have an expert on hand, I suppose if we all tried to plz everyone 100% of the time then we'd all die trying

The main ignition problem was due to the Plasma coils recovering too fast, so the ignition had to be retarded a little to stop the car trying to compensate so much                                   
 
Back onto topic I'll post the EGT's from the Loba on here when the kits is fitted
 
Like I asked before anything new and exciting going off down at APR?

[DanGB]

Hi Steve,

I should be at Marham again next year, with a much improved car from last year. 

Dan

[RedRobin]

^^^^
Re Statller-Steve and APR-Keith's discussion and interaction here:

This is an excellent example of exactly how discussions about 'rival' products should be discussed: Calmly, respectfully, and informatively.
I applaud you guys   and I'm confident that others will agree.

There's an element of short term fun for the onlookers when any handbag fight kicks off but it can get very ugly when traders are involved.

[Janner_Sy]

As i said in the VAGOC thread, Id love to see how this performs at JKMs rollers.  I dont think a stage 3 car has broken 400hp on there to date, so if the L)4xx can make this alleged 400hp minimum there then 

....This couldn't be done with '4WD' cars such as the Golf R though, as JKM don't allow '4WD' on their 2WD rollers.

luckily the Ed30 is FWD 

[Statller-Stevo]

Hi Steve,

I should be at Marham again next year, with a much improved car from last year. 

Dan

Hi Dan, how are you buddy?   

I'm glad to hear your cars going well, afraid I'm getting hooked on these events now, its good to run the cars hard and long it gets them nice and hot, we were on the rev limiter for a good few hundred mtrs on every run at Vmax this year just waiting for the bang ! hah

Have you got any new hardware or have APR made a stronger tune for you

[Statller-Stevo]

As i said in the VAGOC thread, Id love to see how this performs at JKMs rollers.  I dont think a stage 3 car has broken 400hp on there to date, so if the L)4xx can make this alleged 400hp minimum there then 

....This couldn't be done with '4WD' cars such as the Golf R though, as JKM don't allow '4WD' on their 2WD rollers.

luckily the Ed30 is FWD 

Si you are a bully !!
Let us run the car at Marham to see how it goes with a correct tune first, are you coming? you now have Hurdys crown to take away remember

By the looks of it my 195mph standing mile car would prob only read 500hp on JKM's heartbreaker hah!

[Statller-Stevo]

Even today, we are upsizing in turbocharger once we hit the timing limit of whichever exhaust housing we are using at that moment.  The Stage III manifold is designed to flow a ton but on 30 series turbo's we've found that even a GT25 flange can be a point of restriction and that is much larger than the standard collector on a k04.

By the way all this talking about flanges is getting me excited   

[Hedge]

By the looks of it my 195mph standing mile car would prob only read 500hp on JKM's heartbreaker hah!

The mad green Fiesta that was at Marham last year is about that horsepower wise at JKM.

[Poverty]

I hope 30-130 next year will be dry!

[GrayMK5GTI]

As i said in the VAGOC thread, Id love to see how this performs at JKMs rollers.  I dont think a stage 3 car has broken 400hp on there to date, so if the L)4xx can make this alleged 400hp minimum there then  

....This couldn't be done with '4WD' cars such as the Golf R though, as JKM don't allow '4WD' on their 2WD rollers.

luckily the Ed30 is FWD  

Si you are a bully !!
Let us run the car at Marham to see how it goes with a correct tune first, are you coming? you now have Hurdys crown to take away remember

By the looks of it my 195mph standing mile car would prob only read 500hp on JKM's heartbreaker hah!

Steve - still 2 places left  

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,46771.0.html

you know you want to  

Graeme