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Author Topic: Water/methanol Injection thread  (Read 32162 times)

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2009, 07:55:30 pm »
once i eventually decide on a kit and install it, be having a custom map of sorts installed to make the most of the water  methanol injection,

but will it be alright to just keep my bluefin stage 2+ map as it is for the moment and stilll have the watewr meth it running on top. would i still see some gains(albeit, not as big) and wold it be safe

Offline justin@bsh

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2009, 04:26:30 pm »
Just sent DubTek a bunch of info on the Water/Meth kits to get started on a group buy!!!

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2009, 04:27:08 pm »
much appreciated justin.

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2009, 09:59:46 pm »
for guys interested in watermeth injection. here is a very very complete how to guide using devils own water meth injection.

http://members.shaw.ca/cadbury/DIYDevilsOwna.pdf

Offline DanGB

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2009, 09:59:02 pm »
Just do it simon, especially if you have Revo, as you could adjust the timing to take advantage of it  :P
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Offline Hedge

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2009, 10:12:28 pm »
If it was me I would get a proper size turbo first like a GT2871.  :wink:

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2009, 01:28:55 am »
Just do it simon, especially if you have Revo, as you could adjust the timing to take advantage of it  :P

i dont have revo but i will have the option of swapping between the two custom maps when i need to,

Offline DanGB

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2009, 11:28:04 am »
Ok that would be ok then (once youve got it setup properly)
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Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2009, 12:04:21 pm »
Ok that would be ok then (once youve got it setup properly)
WE NEED PICS  OF YOUR INSTALL[/font][/font]

you got any pics of the install on yours dan, ie where your toggle switches, pump, nozzles and pipes etc are.

id say im 95% set to buy it, just the thought that no one has done it over here on a k03 yet. so im the guinea pig lol.

im off to a DD rolling road on wednesday. going to get my base figures of what im at now. im ordering some SFS turbo hoses next week as well so ill get do another RR to see the increase on them. Then it'll be water meth install. Id like to get as close to 300bhp as possible on a DD roller, but it all depends on how high I can get on wednesday

Offline DanGB

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2009, 12:10:49 pm »
keep bugging me and i'll get down to it one day :D
Seat Leon Mk2 TFSI sport 4WD sleeper - Breaking
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Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2009, 01:10:28 pm »
keep bugging me and i'll get down to it one day :D

you done it yet then dan  :P :wink:

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2010, 01:49:44 am »
WHAT IS WATER METHANOL INJECTION

Water injection systems prevent or suppress detonation. It works by spraying an extremely fine mist direct into the intake manifold at a pre selected boost pressure or MAF signal

Alcohol/methanol injection doesn't do the same things as NOS does. None of the same dangers. It is acting as an intercooler enhancer and octane booster. It can lower the cylinder temps or exhaust gasses by upto 300 degrees and makes 95 octane fuel basically look like 112 octane.

Fuel accounts for 70% of engine cooling and FACT Water absorbs SIX times more heat than fuel and evaporates instantly inside the intake manifold taking with it a great deal of heat, so you can imagine the massive cooling effect of water injection.

HOW MUCH CAN AIR TEMP EFFECT PERFORMANCE YOU ASK???

From the table below, you will note that air at 0C contains almost 30% more oxygen per given volume, than air at 77C.

Air Temperature
Air Density
% increase of oxygen

77C
0.9950 kg/m^3

40C
1.113 kg/m^3
+ 12% oxygen

27C
1.1614 kg/m^3
+ 17% oxygen

0C
1.2763 kg/m^3
+ 28% oxygen

So if your car is tuned for say 12.0:1 fuel mixture (rich) for maximum power and the air going into your engine is at 77C, you might make say 241bhp @ wheels. Now if you could get that intake air down to 0C and still have your engine tuned at 12.0:1 fuel mixture, you will make 30% more power based simply on oxygen levels in the air = 241bhp @ wheels x 1.3 = 314bhp @ wheels. That’s a massive 73bhp increase!!!

Now obviously, unless your using dry ice somewhere along your intake path, you won’t get the air to 0C, but that is just to give you an indication of the true effects of air temps and their relation to power output.

WHAT BENEFIT DOES THIS GIVE ME

-The kit allows you to run higher boost, advance ignition and lean out air fuel ratios

-Alcohol does not cause any problems to your engine. It actually "steam" cleans the inside of your throttle body, intake, heads, valves, and exhaust!

INCREASING THE POWER OUTPUT BY INCREASING THE BOOST PRESSURE. WOULD ALCOHOL/WATER INJECTION HELP THEN?

It all depends, if you have good quality fuel and the ambient temperature is not too high you can normally get away with 2-3 psi of boost increase without using alcohol/water injection and will not run into detonation problems.
On the other hand, if you DO NOT have good quality fuel, the ambient temperature is high, or there is a slight tendency for engine knock, then alcohol/water injection or a bigger intercooler is essential

This next Info is based on devils own WMI, but will be similar for the other kits like snow performance who also offer boost or MAF activated systems

WHAT KIT SHOULD I GET, STAGE 1 OR STAGE 2?

Our DevilsOwn Stage 1 "Base" injection kit incorporates a boost switch that activates the system at a specific PSI. It’s adjustable from 2-10 psi or 6-30psi, but you can run up to 250 PSI through the switch, so it’s very reliable. This system will turn on at a level you set and stay on until you drop below that level. It’s On/Off. It can’t dial in exact flow, but it can get you within a range.

DevilsOwn Stage 2 "Progressive" kits offer high functionality and performance, the ability to vary the flow based on inputs (maf, map, tps, ait, any 0-5v source). Most users run it off of separate GM style map sensor if there car does not already have a map sensor. With the Stage 2 Kit you set a starting boost and a full boost and the system will progressively adjust the flow between those two points.

Both styles work. We tell our customers that if budget is the primary concern, get the base injection kit. If you have a little more money to spend or want something with more user control, the progressive kit is worth it.

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2010, 01:51:18 am »
Where to locate your alcohol-water injection nozzle.



Well let's first start with where not to place the nozzle. When placing your water injection nozzle makes sure you do not place the nozzle upstream of a MAF or mass air flow sensor.
Fluid running through this sensor can damage these sensors on some particular engines. Next we recommend not installing these pre-intercooler unless you are injecting pre-blower on a supercharged engine that has an intake mounted intercooler. Injecting before front mount intercooler can cause the water-alcohol mixture to collect at the bottom because of the restriction of the tubes. Okay, now we know where not to place the nozzle, lets get on to where to place it.


Starting from where the air enters the intake tract and ending at the intake just prior to the combustion chamber.
1 Pre-Turbo water
We don't recommend this location at all if you do not have the proper equipment such as the proper nozzle, nozzle size and high pressure pump. Locating the nozzle here is the most controversial location. The majority of alcohol/water injection users do not use this location. One reason for someone to inject at this location is the water/methanol mixture chemically alters the turbo compressor map. The water/methanol injection will dynamically shifts the compressor map of the turbo so that it has the compressor map exhibits the characteristics of a larger turbo. This sounds great but, the main issue with pre-turbo nozzle placement is what mixture can damage the compressor blade if the mixture is not properly atomized when passing through the turbo.
In order to inject pre-turbo with out compressor damage you need a high quality low volume nozzle and high enough pressure to get the water as finely misted as possible, and the smaller nozzle which allows for smaller/finer water droplets. We recommend you mount the nozzle as close to the compresser as possible.

2 Pre-Intercooler

Pre-intercooler seems like a sensible nozzle location but, the thing to think about is if the air entering the IC is pre-cooled, the ability of the intercooler is because the temp difference is lesser. It is also possible for the fine water/alcohol mist to collect in the bottom of your intercooler core. We don't recommend this location either. The other problem is that there's a possibility that the hot air from the turbo might unnecessarily vaporize the water and take up some of the volume built up by the turbo that was supposed to be for the charge. Pre-IC does work for some track cars such as road racing that operate at a more constant higher RPM. For the daily driver, weekend racer, the pre-intercooler location should not be considered.

3 Post Intercooler

Most computer controlled engines have an intake air temperature (IAT) sensor. This sensor monitors the temperature of the air going into the motor. The reason for putting it before the IAT sensor is because it will see the cooler temps and the engine will advance timing, allowing for more power. Also placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders/air intake sensor as possible, it allows for the water/methanol mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge. This allows for great distribution to each cylinder. This post intercooler nozzle location should be the primary nozzle location to be considered for most users.
In theory, since the air charge will be mixed for a longer distance, and therefore time, allowing for the moisture to be absorbed by the air, creating the coolest possible air charge going into the cylinders. Water/methanol molecules from a nozzle located here have more time to be absorbed by the intake charge exiting the IC before making it into the combustion chamber.

4 Pre-Air Intake Temperature Sensor

In the cold side charge pipe is usually an easier or less intrusive nozzle location for most user's than the IC exit tank, but still the closer to IC the better. Locating the nozzle here has same as for reason given in above (location 3)

5 After Air Intake Sensor

After the Air Intake Sensor: You can usually mount it either before or after the ‘butterfly' and still be after the air intake temperature sensor. The main difference when mounting the injector before or after the butterfly is there is less vacuum before versus after the butterfly when idling or driving in vacuum. Translation, when in vacuum, there is more vacuum after the butterfly than before it. Here is why this is important: If your solenoid is placed very far from the injectors (more than a couple of feet), then the vacuum can actually suck just a little bit of the water/methanol. This small amount of moisture ingestion during vacuum is not a problem.

6 Intake manifold

This location can be the most complex area to install. Usually requiring that he intake be removed for access. Injecting here is going to yield the largest water/methanol droplets. And with the closer proximity to the combustion chambers is going to provide a larger amount of mixture into the cylinders. Doing this usually requires more fuel from the factory system be removed. This option is best for max cooling.
The water here is being injected in a manner much like port fuel injection and it is the bigger water molecules being injected here that have a more direct effect of in cylinder cooling and injection here has more of an effect of altering the flame front of the combustion charge in a way much like a higher octane fuel. To take full advantage of this nozzle location it is suggested that trimming away some of the factory dumped fuel be done. In other words, in order to take advantage of the better properties of water over fuel for cooling and injecting water at this location, you want to remove the dumped fuel and actually REPLACE this with water. This injection point with a pretty sophisticated WI control method allows for the most advantageous use of water injection. The drawback for nozzles located heres is kit/component complexity, install complexity, additional labor, possible machine shop costs, and possible additional parts costs.

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2010, 01:52:35 am »
kits ive found that are available

Devils own stage 1(boost operated) £209.99 http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?cPath=21
devils own stage 2 (maf operated) £279.99 http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?cPath=21

snow perfomance stage 2 (maf operated)£454 http://www.jabbasport.com/store/inde...ef=2001220TFSI

AEM water meth kit £325+vat          sold by backdraft motorsport (£300 for fitting )

fitting costs from http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=62

w/m install with tank in the boot £105
w/m install utilising stock washer bottle £85

not as expensive as thought
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 01:59:13 am by vRSy »

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2010, 10:57:20 pm »
Quote
Where can I get this? Cost and benefits please..  :happy2: :jumpmove:

found the thread and bumped it.  its proven mod on suburus and evos and all the jap turbo cars. there are also quite alot of guys using them on the 1.8T cars. 

the uk doesnt seem to have caught on with the TFSI WMI market yet. however the yanks are mad on it.

As far as im aware there are a few guys on SCN who are considering it. been a few threads on there recently
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 11:09:45 pm by vRSy »